Atheism And Moral Progress

[seer]

Prove me wrong.

You said: Your moral law is based upon a non-existent entity.

It is on you to prove your claim

[seer]

So, by immutable character do you mean to say that god is determined, that he's not free to choose evil over good?

Yes, morally determined. He can not do evil. He can not be other than He is.

[Jim B.]

Oh yes, I include more than just “biological evolution”. It includes cultural evolution as you suggested, as grounded in the necessary social behavior of humanity to survive as cooperative intelligent social animals. Morals and ethics evolve and vary to a degree from culture to culture over time but the bottom line is the survival of the species.

I would disagree. Culture is about much more than mere survival. It is also about flourishing. It's reductive to see humans are merely survival machines.

[carpedm9587]

I would disagree. Culture is about much more than mere survival. It is also about flourishing. It's reductive to see humans are merely survival machines.

Strictly speaking, humanity is no more exempt from evolutionary pressure than any other living thing. So everything we do will ultimately be "evaluated" by the forces of evolution. We may see culture as related to "flourishing," but if "culture" and "flourishing" do not provide an evolutionary advantage, then the inevitable will happen. Indeed, sentience itself is an evolutionary development that is too young yet to know if it provides a long term evolutionary advantage. It seems to in the short term, given humanity's rapid spread and domination of the planet. However, it may be that sentience causes a species to "burn hot and fast" and ultimately destroy its own habitat and, with it, itself. Or it may be that sentience provides the ultimate evolutionary advantage because a species can constantly adapt via technology to changing circumstances. Our species is too young to know which it is. If all of earth's existence were mapped onto a 24 hour clock, life itself would emerge around 4:00 AM, but humans wouldn't emerge until 11:58:43 PM. We are a VERY young species.

[Adrift]

I would disagree. Culture is about much more than mere survival. It is also about flourishing. It's reductive to see humans are merely survival machines.

Agreed. And there are pro-environmental groups who actually see the survival of the human race, and evolutionary imperatives as moral wrongs. The popular slogan for The Church of Euthanasia, for instance, is "Save the Planet, Kill Yourself," and the popular slogan for the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement is "May we live long and die out." Antinatalism as a philosophical moral position has existed for ages, so, at least for these groups, there's certainly more to morality than maximal survival of the human species.

[JimL]

Yes, morally determined. He can not do evil. He can not be other than He is.

So god is determined, doesn't have free will?

[seer]

So god is determined, doesn't have free will?

No He doesn't, not when it comes to His moral nature, in other areas yes.

[JimL]

No He doesn't, not when it comes to His moral nature, in other areas yes.

What do you do, just make this stuff up as you go?

[seer]

What do you do, just make this stuff up as you go?

No basic theology:

The Immutability of God is an attribute that "God is unchanging in his character, will, and covenant promises."[1]

The Westminster Shorter Catechism says that "[God] is a spirit, whose being, wisdom power, holiness, justice, goodness, and truth are infinite, eternal, and unchangeable." Those things do not change. A number of Scriptures attest to this idea (such as Num. 23:19; 1 Sam. 15:29; Ps. 102:26; Mal. 3:6; 2 Tim. 2:13; Heb. 6:17–18; Jam. 1:17) [2]

God's immutability defines all God's other attributes: God is immutably wise, merciful, good, and gracious. The same may be said about God's knowledge: God is almighty (having all power), God is omnipotent (having all power), God is omnipresent (present everywhere), God is omniscient (knows everything), eternally and immutably so. Infiniteness and immutability in God are mutually supportive and imply each other. An infinite and changing God is inconceivable; indeed, it is a contradiction in definition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immutability_(theology)

[Tassman]

You said: Your moral law is based upon a non-existent entity.

It is on you to prove your claim

No. It is up to you verify your premise that “God's law is grounded in His immutable character”. Unless you justify the premise of God's existence, you have no argument because without a true premise you cannot arrive at a true conclusion.

[Tassman]

No He doesn't, not when it comes to His moral nature, in other areas yes.

So you agree with JimL that God is determined and doesn't have free will? But being "determined" means that all events, including moral choices, are completely determined by previously existing causes. So what were the preexisting causes for God?

[seer]

So you agree with JimL that God is determined and doesn't have free will? But being "determined" means that all events, including moral choices, are completely determined by previously existing causes. So what were the preexisting causes for God?

No Tass, I did not say that all God's choices are determined just His moral character - he can not lie, be unjust, be evil etc... He is perfectly free to create, not to create, what to create, who to create, how and when to create, etc...

[JimL]

No Tass, I did not say that all God's choices are determined just His moral character - he can not lie, be unjust, be evil etc... He is perfectly free to create, not to create, what to create, who to create, how and when to create, etc...

So, if god, morally speaking, is determined, what is it that determines him?

[seer]

ANY government has the right to rule when that right is conferred by those ruled. In America, we recognize that "the consent of the governed" does not mean we will always get our way. That's part of the social contract. Those who think like you have decided that the majority should rule, until they are in the minority, and then they want the minority to rule. In other words, they always want their way. In a representative government, we have representation. That doesn't mean we always get our way.

This doesn't make sense, where is this even hinted at in the definitions of authority? Again this idea of consent is a qualification you have added. But if you have citizens who don't buy into your social contract (let's say criminals) does the government have a right to punish law breakers even when they don't consent to the law or government rule?

[seer]

So, if god, morally speaking, is determined, what is it that determines him?

His own nature, i.e, God can't be other than He is.