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Mormon Trinity

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  • 7up: Second, I would say that LDS views are often considered similar to a version of the Trinity, one that has been called "Social Trinitarianism".

    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Show me any remotely orthodox view of the Trinity that has God the Father evolving from a flesh and blood sinner.
    There are two problems with your short post here Cow Poke.

    1) First, the similarities to "Social Trinitarianism" and LDS has to do with the belief that these distinct persons are "one" with a "perichoresis" or an interpenetration of lives through spiritual communication which results in this deep kind of harmonious relationship between these different individuals.

    Rather than addressing that, you just went off on a different topic, whereby you expressed that you believe that the Biblical text does not directly address what God the Father was doing or what he has done prior to the creation described in the book of Genesis.

    2) Joseph Smith did not say that God the Father "evolved from a flesh and blood sinner". I have already explained this on this forum, but perhaps you missed it, so, I will explain again.

    Joseph Smith wanted to preach about who and what God is. What kind of being is God? What is He like? If you were to see God, what would God look like? That is what Joseph Smith is getting at and he addressed it in the King Follet Sermon. He wanted to dispel the concepts of God which say that God is some kind of literally omnipresent substance which literally exists in the entirety of existence. He wanted to explain that God is not "wholly other" like modern Christianity teaches. So, near the beginning of the sermon, Joseph says:

    "In the first place, I wish to go back to the beginning--to the Creation. That is the starting point if we are to be fully acquainted with the mind, the purposes, and the decrees of the great Elohim who sits in yonder heavens. We must have an understanding of God himself in the beginning. If we start right, it is easy to go right all the time; but if we start wrong, it is a hard matter to get right."

    So, if we misunderstand God and God's relationship to the Creation from the beginning, then incorrect interpretations of scripture will follow after that. This is why in previous discussions I have stressed the the importance of rejecting Ex Nihilo creation (i.e. creation out of nothing), because so many erroneous conclusions come from that false premise.

    "I want to ask this congregation, every man, woman and child, to answer the question in his own heart what kind of a being God is. What kind of a being is God? Does any man or woman know? Have any of you seen him, heard him, communed with him? Here is the question, perhaps, that will from this time forth occupy your attention. The apostle [John] says, "This is life eternal"--to know God and Jesus Christ, whom he has sent... I want you all to know God, to be familiar with him. And if I can bring you to him, all persecutions against me will cease; you will know that I am his servant, for I speak as one having authority."


    Joseph Smith claimed to have seen both God the Father AND Jesus Christ as distinct personal beings. He believed that he was chosen by God to reveal the true nature of God to the world, and was given authority to do so.

    "God himself, who sits enthroned in yonder heaven, is a man like one of you. That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today and you were to see the great God who holds this world in its orbit and upholds all things by his power, you would see him in the image and very form of a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion and image of God. He received instruction from and walked, talked, and conversed with him as one man talks and communes with another. "

    Now, critics of the LDS church will just take the first sentence here out of context. They will say that Mormons believe that God was like one of us in every sense. That is not what Joseph Smith is saying. He explained here what he means. He means that God is a personal being with hands, feet, head, etc. We are created in the image of God. In the Garden of Eden, God literally was walking and talking with God, exactly as the History of the Old Testament describes it. Moses had a similar experience, when "The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend." (Exodus 33:11) Or when the elders of Israel saw God, "and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself."

    Joseph Smith is expressing the exact same concept in this sermon. If you were to ask Moses or the elders of Israel, what kind of being does God look like, they would describe "the image and very form of a man."

    The sermon given by Joseph Smith expresses the idea that God the Father, at some point in eternities past, lived in a human mortal body like we have (i.e. a man like us, and a man like Jesus Christ was a man), and then God the Father obtained a resurrected body in the same way that Jesus Christ obtained a resurrected body here on Earth.

    "What did Jesus say? Jesus said, "As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power." To do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious--in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible."

    Now, let's look for some context of the verse that Joseph Smith is referring to in John chapter 5, whereby the Jews accuse Jesus and Jesus responds by discussing the resurrection,

    18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only had broken the Sabbath, but said also that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

    19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, “Amen, Amen I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He seeth the Father do; for what things soever He doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

    20 For the Father loveth the Son and showeth Him all things that He Himself doeth; and He will show Him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

    21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead and quickeneth them, even so the Son quickeneth whom He will.


    Just a couple verses later, Jesus returns to the topic of resurrection,

    24 Verily, verily I say unto you, he that heareth My Word and believeth in Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.

    What does it mean to pass from death unto life in this verse? It means resurrection from the dead:

    25 “Verily, verily I say unto you, the hour is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live.

    26 For as the Father hath life in Himself, so hath He given to the Son to have life in Himself,


    Joseph Smith was teaching that God the Father has life in Himself, meaning that He is a resurrected Being. When the prophet Joseph said that God is a man like us, he was saying that God the Father is a man like us in the same sense that Jesus Christ is a man like us. Again, this is why Joseph said:

    "God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did, ...

    What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. I saw my Father work out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom I shall present it to my Father so that he obtains kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt his glory. And so Jesus treads in his tracks to inherit what God did before."

    As you can see, Joseph Smith was indicating that God the Father was a man in the same way that Jesus Christ was a man.

    Jesus Christ has the exact nature and being as God the Father, but they have lives which are closely knit and a relationship/bond between them. Nevertheless, they are distinct beings from one another. They are not the same being, but instead Jesus, as a perfect Son, is the is the exact same kind of being, who is "one" with God the Father in the Biblical sense as described in John chapter 17. Furthermore, we see that one of Christ's missions on Earth was to show the world exactly what kind of Being God the Father is, in every sense,
    "in these last days [God the Father] has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And [Jesus] who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    This is also what Jesus means when he says, "If you know Me, you will also know My Father. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him." (John 14:7) He does not mean that Jesus and God the Father are the same person. He is saying that He is a perfect representation of the kind of being and nature of God the Father in every sense.

    -7up

    Comment


    • 7up: The figurative "oneness" in the Bible is consistent and it is found all over the Biblical text and is nothing like what Trinitarians present it to be. Here are some examples:
      Mark 10:8 A man will cleave unto his wife, "they twain shall be ONE flesh". ...
      Acts 4:32 multitude ... of one heart and of one soul
      Rom. 12:5 we, being many, are one body in Christ
      2 Cor. 13:11 Be perfect ... of one mind
      Gal. 3:28 ye are all one in Christ
      Philip. 1:27 one spirit, with one mind striving together
      "John 17: 22 "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one."


      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
      The "No other God" language is all over the Bible. You've been schooled on it dozens of times.

      Sorry, but that is not ontology either. You want clear statements on ontological oneness?

      Exodus 8:10 Then he said, “Tomorrow.” So he said, “May it be according to your word, that you may know that there is no one like the Lord our God.
      Deuteronomy 4:35 To you it was shown that you might know that the Lord, He is God; there is no other besides Him.
      Deuteronomy 4:39 Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the Lord, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.
      Deuteronomy 32:39 ‘See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me;
      2 Samuel 7:22 For this reason You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
      2 Samuel 22:32 “For who is God, besides the Lord? And who is a rock, besides our God?
      1 Kings 8:60 so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the Lord is God; there is no one else.
      1 Chronicles 17:20 O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
      Psalm 18:31 For who is God, but the Lord? And who is a rock, except our God
      Isaiah 37:20 Now, O Lord our God, deliver us from his hand that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that You alone, Lord, are God.”
      Isaiah 43:10 “You are My witnesses,” declares the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.
      Isaiah 44:6 “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.
      Isaiah 44:8 ‘Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.’”
      Isaiah 45:14 Thus says the Lord, “The products of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush And the Sabeans, men of stature, Will come over to you and will be yours; They will walk behind you, they will come over in chains And will bow down to you; They will make supplication to you: ‘Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God.’”
      Isaiah 45:18 For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it [a]a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited), “I am the Lord, and there is none else.
      Isaiah 45:21 “Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.
      Isaiah 46:9 “Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me,
      None of those statements are concerning "ontological oneness" as you claim. I can easily demonstrate how you are absolutely wrong on this. That language is clearly within the context of Jehovah being compared to idols. The Hebrews were to to deny the false gods and worship Yahweh/Jehovah.* It really is just that simple.* Allow me to demonstrate the context completely in order to leave no doubt at all.

      Israelites was reared in an atmosphere of idolatry. There were numerous deities among the Egyptians for example.
      This was described in the first of the Ten Commandments: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me," (Exodus 20:2-5)

      This means, beside me, above me, or equal to me, or to be an object of worship.

      "Yet I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt have no god but me: for there is no savior beside me." (Hos. 8:4; 13:2-4.)
      Many prophets spoke of the other kinds of "gods" being referred to:
      "And all the graven images thereof shall be beaten to pieces, and all the hires thereof shall be burned with the fire, and all the idols thereof will I lay desolate: for she gathered it of the hire of an harlot, and they shall return to the hire of an harlot." (Mic. 1:7; see also Habakkuk 2:18; Zechariah 10:2; 13:2.)

      "Tell ye, and bring [them] near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.* Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else." (Isaiah 45:21-22)

      So, with all of this in mind, you have to understand that the very phrase "none besides me" is a Hebrew idiom describing superiority over the false gods of other nations.

      (This is the nature of the Hebrew language. For example, in Hebrew when you say "at the head", it does not necessarily really mean the actual head of an animal. It is translated as, "at the top" or "in the beginning" and literally translating the phrase with an actual "head" is misinterpretation.)

      Again, "no other" and "none besides me" does not mean that there are literally no others at all and I can demonstrate this to you in the Biblical text. In fact, this is best demonstrated elsewhere in Isaiah. When Isaiah writes “there is none beside me” in regard to God, and then writes “there is none beside me” in regard to Babylon (Isa 47:8-10), the phrase means the same thing in each case. They mean the same thing, even if in one instance it is a true statement (God’s case) and in the second instance it is not a true statement (Babylon’s case). Isaiah was saying that the Babylonians felt that they were superior to others; he was not saying that they literally believed that there are no others in existence.

      So, the Old Testament prophets were constantly condemning Israel for the worship of idols, and urged them to worship the only God that could truly provide them with salvation.* That is what the scriptures you refer to clearly and unambiguously teach. Furthermore, we know that other beings, namely humans, who can be actually called "gods" exist, because both in the Old Testament AND New Testament. Those who are simply given authority by God are called "gods".* These people actually exist, thus making God the "God of gods" and the "Lord of lords".

      Now, in the context which is actually pertinent to our current discussion (as opposed to your misuse of the Old Testament), there are instances where Jesus Christ is referring to the Father. It is clear from that context that Jesus Christ, who is fully Deity, claims to have a God above him, who is the Father. Jesus Christ (God the Son), has a God (God the Father). God has a God. This is perfectly consistent with LDS theology.

      -7up

      P.S.

      Bill quotes: John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God

      Yes. In the Beginning (see Genesis 1:1), Jesus Christ was Deity ("was God") and He was with God the Father ("was with God").

      This is a statement against the Trinity. You cannot have a single indivisible substance that it "with" itself.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
        I've already shown numerous times what Cherbonnier meant by using the definitions he himself was using and teaching his students. I won't tread that ground again. You misuse him. End of discussion.
        Your memory is severely flawed. When we flushed this discussion out, we find that you were constantly at odds with Cherbonnier. This was most starkly described in my posts to you on this thread, posts 195 and 196, found here on this link.

        -7up

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seven7up View Post
          7up: The figurative "oneness" in the Bible is consistent and it is found all over the Biblical text and is nothing like what Trinitarians present it to be. Here are some examples:
          Mark 10:8 A man will cleave unto his wife, "they twain shall be ONE flesh". ...
          Acts 4:32 multitude ... of one heart and of one soul
          Rom. 12:5 we, being many, are one body in Christ
          2 Cor. 13:11 Be perfect ... of one mind
          Gal. 3:28 ye are all one in Christ
          Philip. 1:27 one spirit, with one mind striving together
          "John 17: 22 "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one."




          None of those statements are concerning "ontological oneness" as you claim.
          Yes they are. They are clear claims of YHWH being the only God in existence. Ontologically, there is only ONE God. That's what all of these verses mean. You have to IMPORT a secret "team" of gods that YHWH refuses to tell the Jews about. It's patent eisegesis.

          I can easily demonstrate how you are absolutely wrong on this. That language is clearly within the context of Jehovah being compared to idols.
          Because anything else that anyone claims to be a god is a false idol. This is blatant monotheism. You have to twist and invent other "same team' gods to make your heresy work.

          The Hebrews were to to deny the false gods and worship Yahweh/Jehovah.
          Until He came to earth, then he "sprung the goose" that they were to worship Elohim alone. Your YHWH is a liar.

          * It really is just that simple.* Allow me to demonstrate the context completely in order to leave no doubt at all.

          Israelites was reared in an atmosphere of idolatry. There were numerous deities among the Egyptians for example.
          This was described in the first of the Ten Commandments: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me," (Exodus 20:2-5)

          This means, beside me, above me, or equal to me, or to be an object of worship.
          So, placing Elohim above Himself when He came to earth was a direct violation of that command, regardless of them being tag team partners.

          "Yet I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt have no god but me: for there is no savior beside me." (Hos. 8:4; 13:2-4.)
          Many prophets spoke of the other kinds of "gods" being referred to:
          "And all the graven images thereof shall be beaten to pieces, and all the hires thereof shall be burned with the fire, and all the idols thereof will I lay desolate: for she gathered it of the hire of an harlot, and they shall return to the hire of an harlot." (Mic. 1:7; see also Habakkuk 2:18; Zechariah 10:2; 13:2.)

          "Tell ye, and bring [them] near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.* Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else." (Isaiah 45:21-22)

          So, with all of this in mind, you have to understand that the very phrase "none besides me" is a Hebrew idiom describing superiority over the false gods of other nations.
          No it isn't. It's a statement of monotheism.

          Again, "no other" and "none besides me" does not mean that there are literally no others at all and I can demonstrate this to you in the Biblical text. In fact, this is best demonstrated elsewhere in Isaiah. When Isaiah writes “there is none beside me” in regard to God, and then writes “there is none beside me” in regard to Babylon (Isa 47:8-10), the phrase means the same thing in each case. They mean the same thing, even if in one instance it is a true statement (God’s case) and in the second instance it is not a true statement (Babylon’s case). Isaiah was saying that the Babylonians felt that they were superior to others; he was not saying that they literally believed that there are no others in existence.
          When referring to authority, Babylon believed they were it, and that none else had authority, so yes, it did believe there were none in existence with authority but them.

          So, the Old Testament prophets were constantly condemning Israel for the worship of idols, and urged them to worship the only God that could truly provide them with salvation.* That is what the scriptures you refer to clearly and unambiguously teach. Furthermore, we know that other beings, namely humans, who can be actually called "gods" exist, because both in the Old Testament AND New Testament. Those who are simply given authority by God are called "gods".* These people actually exist, thus making God the "God of gods" and the "Lord of lords".

          Now, in the context which is actually pertinent to our current discussion (as opposed to your misuse of the Old Testament), there are instances where Jesus Christ is referring to the Father. It is clear from that context that Jesus Christ, who is fully Deity, claims to have a God above him, who is the Father. Jesus Christ (God the Son), has a God (God the Father). God has a God. This is perfectly consistent with LDS theology.

          -7up

          P.S.

          Bill quotes: John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God

          Yes. In the Beginning (see Genesis 1:1), Jesus Christ was Deity ("was God") and He was with God the Father ("was with God").

          This is a statement against the Trinity. You cannot have a single indivisible substance that it "with" itself.
          I've shown you don't know what you are talking about and that you have made things up.
          Last edited by Bill the Cat; 11-15-2014, 07:32 PM.
          That's what
          - She

          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
          - Stephen R. Donaldson

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seven7up View Post
            There are two problems with your short post here Cow Poke.
            No, actually there are LOTS of problems with your LONG post which STILL does not deal with the fact that your false prophet continually makes up theology as he goes along, changes it at will to suit himself, and is a liar and a hypocrite.

            But please feel free to continue to spew forth confusion and fairy tales.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seven7up View Post
              None of those statements are concerning "ontological oneness" as you claim. I can easily demonstrate how you are absolutely wrong on this. That language is clearly within the context of Jehovah being compared to idols. The Hebrews were to to deny the false gods and worship Yahweh/Jehovah.
              Let the heavens praise your wonders, O Lord,
              your faithfulness in the assembly of the holy ones!
              For who in the skies can be compared to the Lord?
              Who among the heavenly beings is like the Lord,
              a God greatly to be feared in the council of the holy ones,
              and awesome above all who are around him?
              O Lord God of hosts,
              who is mighty as you are, O Lord,
              with your faithfulness all around you?
              --Psalm 89:5-8

              Comment

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