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  • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
    That’s not how it works at all Jimmy. Companies provide benefits as a way of enticing workers and factor the cost in when they hire new employees. Why does the military offer great benefits? Because the pay isn’t great so providing good healthcare, good education opportunities, and giving money for housing or providing a place to live rent free is among the ways the military attracts new recruits to fill the ranks. Sorry Jimmy, that’s capitalism in action, not socialism. It is interesting though how modern socialist try to redefine socialism to hide its massive death record and economic destruction every time it’s been tried. Second , you didn’t get rid of the middle man, you simply changed him from a private insurance provider to a government bean counter who is just as faceless and just as ruthless in cutting cost to save money. If that cost is your life, they are will to pay that price. Heartless companies to heartless government, not much of a change really.
    IIRC companies started offering health benefits to entice workers during WWII when the government put a freeze on pay increases.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
      Those who are the best off, Sparko. I know you don't like that idea, but that's where we differ with conservatives.


      Again, you can't get water from a stone regardless of what Moses says. We pay according to our ability and if that means some people can't afford to both survive day to day as well as to be able to afford health care Insurance then those who are better off pay higher taxes for that reason. Again, I know you don't like that idea, but that's where we liberals differ with you. We think that the lives of people are more important than greedy conservative principles.


      I know, those poor rich people are really suffering, aren't they. And btw, you are misreading, or misconstruing the chart. People who earn over $138,000 includes a lot of people who earn a whole lot more than 138,000. People who earn $138,000 are themselves only paying about 10% which doesn't seem all that outrageous to me.
      1. You just made my point. The people paying for the free healthcare will not be the poor so they will be getting it for free, despite your previous claim that "we all will be paying for it" as if it were being equally distributed by those who are using it.

      2. No you are misreading the chart. the % on the lower part is what percentage of the population makes between 138K and 195K. The percentage above the arch is what percent of the tax burden they pay.

      So at the bottom you see: Top 1% ($480K) - that means 1% of the population makes that or higher. Then looking at the arch, you see that 1% of the population pays 39.4% of the tax burden.
      Adding it all up, you have about 25% of the population paying 70% of the tax burden.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        1. You just made my point. The people paying for the free healthcare will not be the poor so they will be getting it for free, despite your previous claim that "we all will be paying for it" as if it were being equally distributed by those who are using it.
        What I said was that it wasn't free, not that it wasn't free for some segment of the population who haven't a pot to piss in otherwise.
        2. No you are misreading the chart. the % on the lower part is what percentage of the population makes between 138K and 195K. The percentage above the arch is what percent of the tax burden they pay.

        So at the bottom you see: Top 1% ($480K) - that means 1% of the population makes that or higher. Then looking at the arch, you see that 1% of the population pays 39.4% of the tax burden.
        Adding it all up, you have about 25% of the population paying 70% of the tax burden.
        Yes, but the largest burden is on those with the largest incomes and those making $138,000 are not paying an inordinate amount. That's the way the tax system works Sparko which is what conservatives think is unfair. We simply have different priorities as far as the purpose of government should be. Liberals actually have the more christian perspective when it comes to government, conservatives are more about themselves in that respect.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
          What I said was that it wasn't free, not that it wasn't free for some segment of the population who haven't a pot to piss in otherwise.

          Yes, but the largest burden is on those with the largest incomes and those making $138,000 are not paying an inordinate amount. That's the way the tax system works Sparko which is what conservatives think is unfair. We simply have different priorities as far as the purpose of government should be. Liberals actually have the more christian perspective when it comes to government, conservatives are more about themselves in that respect.
          Like I said, the people who need 'free' healthcare the least are being made to pay for everyone else. Liberals always think it is fair to force someone else to pay for their stuff.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            Like I said, the people who need 'free' healthcare the least are being made to pay for everyone else. Liberals always think it is fair to force someone else to pay for their stuff.
            So - any statement that starts with "liberals always" is as wrong from the outset as statements that start "conservatives always." It is a meaningless superlative. And the resort to "fair" is a whine of a child, not the argument of an adult. Our president needs to learn this.

            Many liberals DO believe that there is a social justice issue that needs attention when we have such a huge wealth discrepancy in this country, and we have people that need to work 2 jobs in order to keep food on the table, a roof overhead, and clothes on the backs of themselves and their family. Ultimately, the healthcare issue is a matter of timing. We all grow from young to old. As we do so, our healthcare needs increase at the same time that our income decreases. The current system leaves the young free to "opt out" of healthcare when they least need it, only to opt back in when they do and cannot afford it. The result is a massive burden on the system and we ALL end up paying for it in the end through higher premiums, higher taxes, and higher healthcare costs to cover those who cannot pay. A single payer system that covers everyone, young to old, levels the playing field for everyone. The young pay (by taxes) when they don't need it so they will have coverage (by taxes) when they actually do need it. Meanwhile, a single payer system gives enormous leverage to negotiate prices.

            As for the argument, "I don't want the government telling me what I can and cannot get for healthcare," that argument has little/no weight. first, they are not limiting what someone can and cannot get; they are limiting what the program would pay for. And we are already being told what will be paid for, but we are being told that by the boards and managers of companies that are in the business to make a profit for their shareholders. We have zero control over these companies. We at least have voting control over our government.
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              So - any statement that starts with "liberals always" is as wrong from the outset as statements that start "conservatives always." It is a meaningless superlative. And the resort to "fair" is a whine of a child, not the argument of an adult. Our president needs to learn this.

              Many liberals DO believe that there is a social justice issue that needs attention when we have such a huge wealth discrepancy in this country, and we have people that need to work 2 jobs in order to keep food on the table, a roof overhead, and clothes on the backs of themselves and their family. Ultimately, the healthcare issue is a matter of timing. We all grow from young to old. As we do so, our healthcare needs increase at the same time that our income decreases. The current system leaves the young free to "opt out" of healthcare when they least need it, only to opt back in when they do and cannot afford it. The result is a massive burden on the system and we ALL end up paying for it in the end through higher premiums, higher taxes, and higher healthcare costs to cover those who cannot pay. A single payer system that covers everyone, young to old, levels the playing field for everyone. The young pay (by taxes) when they don't need it so they will have coverage (by taxes) when they actually do need it. Meanwhile, a single payer system gives enormous leverage to negotiate prices.

              As for the argument, "I don't want the government telling me what I can and cannot get for healthcare," that argument has little/no weight. first, they are not limiting what someone can and cannot get; they are limiting what the program would pay for. And we are already being told what will be paid for, but we are being told that by the boards and managers of companies that are in the business to make a profit for their shareholders. We have zero control over these companies. We at least have voting control over our government.
              As someone who has said they are wealthy, I am sure you will be happy to give 40% of your earnings to put food and bandaids on the table of someone who is not working, working twice as much so you can afford to do the same for your own family. Maybe we should make it volunteer? Then all the rich liberals can support all the poor ones.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                It's an illusion. The last 75 years of our country didn't really happen.
                AH, I wondered.
                "Obama is not a brown-skinned, anti-war socialist who gives away free healthcare. You are thinking of Jesus." Episcopal Bishop of Arizona

                I remember WinAce. Gone but not forgotten.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  As someone who has said they are wealthy, I am sure you will be happy to give 40% of your earnings to put food and bandaids on the table of someone who is not working, working twice as much so you can afford to do the same for your own family.
                  First, I am not "wealthy," but neither I am poor. "Comfortable" would probably be a better description. You also have no idea what I give each year, Sparko, so you might want to withhold judgments. Finally, I have been fairly clear in my posts that I am not for a program that fosters dependence. That being said, there is much hype about "dependence." Most money slated for "welfare" (thanks to Republican-introduced rules) never actually reaches the people who most need it. for those who actually do receive benefits, the average length of time spent on welfare is 2 years. Yes, there are abusers who need to be weeded out, and the system needs a lot of tweeking. But thanks to years of "reform" most of the states these days spend "welfare" money on any number of programs unrelated to direct aid to individuals in need.

                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  Maybe we should make it volunteer? Then all the rich liberals can support all the poor ones.
                  I have no problem with wealth. I have a great deal of problem with wealth gleaned at the expense of others. When the lowest paid people in a company cannot feed, clothe, and house their families, and the highest paid are walking off with $100M parachutes, the system is badly broken. Markets cannot be 100% free - because what they most care about is the bottom line, and historically they have thrown people, the ecology, and pretty much anything else under the bus to achieve it. We need only look at the history of the steel, fossil fuel, sugar, tobacco, railroad, and textile industries to see this in action. Markets must have a balance of freedom and regulation. Too much freedom and they ransack in the name of profits. Too much regulation and they stifle under the yoke. As with most things in life - balance is required. What the left and right disagree on is where that balance point should be, with the left tending to over-regulate and the right tending to under-regulate.
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    IIRC companies started offering health benefits to entice workers during WWII when the government put a freeze on pay increases.
                    I just think it’s interesting that a company offering a benefit is an example of socialism to Jimmy and Co.
                    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      First, I am not "wealthy," but neither I am poor. "Comfortable" would probably be a better description. You also have no idea what I give each year, Sparko, so you might want to withhold judgments.
                      We are talking more about forced giving here, carp. What you choose doesn't matter. As a "'comfortable" 1%'er you will be expected to pay your fair share! At least half of that money you are hoarding needs to go to those more deserving, and the government is the only one qualified to decide, not you.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        We are talking more about forced giving here, carp. What you choose doesn't matter. As a "'comfortable" 1%'er you will be expected to pay your fair share! At least half of that money you are hoarding needs to go to those more deserving, and the government is the only one qualified to decide, not you.
                        That's what taxes are, Sparko, forced giving, and we elect our representatives to use those tax dollars as we see fit. Correct? Now we on the liberal side see the welfare of the least amongst us, including their ability to afford health insurance, as an important matter, worthy of our tax dollars. You conservatives don't see it that way. Conservatives basically think of the poor as lazy good for nothings who should just die and decrease the surplus population. So, fundamentally we just have a different take on government and on people. What I can never really figure out is how it is that conservatives claim to be the party of christian principles. Funny, the world we live in.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                          That's what taxes are, Sparko, forced giving, and we elect our representatives to use those tax dollars as we see fit. Correct? Now we on the liberal side see the welfare of the least amongst us, including their ability to afford health insurance, as an important matter, worthy of our tax dollars. You conservatives don't see it that way. Conservatives basically think of the poor as lazy good for nothings who should just die and decrease the surplus population. So, fundamentally we just have a different take on government and on people. What I can never really figure out is how it is that conservatives claim to be the party of christian principles. Funny, the world we live in.
                          Jim, you are one of those 1%'ers too right? Independently wealthy you told us. How much of your money are you giving to support those poor people? I remember when you were complaining that taxes needed to be higher to support the poor, and CP told you that you are free to donate MORE taxes than you actually owe. Have you done that yet?

                          PS - I grew up as one of those poor people you keep wanting to help. I don't remember you or anyone else helping me. I worked my own way through trade school because my parents could not afford to send me to college. I then got a job and worked my way through college. I never once was on welfare or asked for a handout, or begged on the street. If I can do it, why can't others do it too? I find that liberals are the ones who dismiss the poor and the blacks as inferior. To you guys, poor people and black people are not good enough or smart enough to make it on their own. They are like little children who need the help of smart liberals like you to hold their hands. They are too dumb to get photo IDs, or go to school and learn a trade, or get a job, right?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            Jim, you are one of those 1%'ers too right? Independently wealthy you told us. How much of your money are you giving to support those poor people? I remember when you were complaining that taxes needed to be higher to support the poor, and CP told you that you are free to donate MORE taxes than you actually owe. Have you done that yet?

                            PS - I grew up as one of those poor people you keep wanting to help. I don't remember you or anyone else helping me. I worked my own way through trade school because my parents could not afford to send me to college. I then got a job and worked my way through college. I never once was on welfare or asked for a handout, or begged on the street. If I can do it, why can't others do it too? I find that liberals are the ones who dismiss the poor and the blacks as inferior. To you guys, poor people and black people are not good enough or smart enough to make it on their own. They are like little children who need the help of smart liberals like you to hold their hands. They are too dumb to get photo IDs, or go to school and learn a trade, or get a job, right?
                            Yes, we all know the excuses that conservatives make for their own thoughtless greed, Sparko. My sister used to make a similar argument until I reminded her how a government program called CETA funded her education in biotech wherin she got a great job at Boston City Hospital and is now a productive member of society, making big money, and all the while raling against government assistence for the needy. Yes, she's a republican.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                              I just think it’s interesting that a company offering a benefit is an example of socialism to Jimmy and Co.
                              Those benefits, of course, come out of the owner's profits, they don't just fall from the sky.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                Jim, you are one of those 1%'ers too right? Independently wealthy you told us. How much of your money are you giving to support those poor people? I remember when you were complaining that taxes needed to be higher to support the poor, and CP told you that you are free to donate MORE taxes than you actually owe. Have you done that yet?
                                Yeah, that was his infamous "there is no mechanism available to voluntarily contribute" error -- we certainly removed that blockade, so I'm sure he's writing a check at least once a month to the government.


                                EDIT: Do the instruction books for IRS still say "voluntary compliance"?
                                Last edited by Cow Poke; 08-28-2018, 09:35 AM.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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