Originally posted by lilpixieofterror
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Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!
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Free Health Care For All...
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I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by JimL View PostThose who are the best off, Sparko. I know you don't like that idea, but that's where we differ with conservatives.
Again, you can't get water from a stone regardless of what Moses says. We pay according to our ability and if that means some people can't afford to both survive day to day as well as to be able to afford health care Insurance then those who are better off pay higher taxes for that reason. Again, I know you don't like that idea, but that's where we liberals differ with you. We think that the lives of people are more important than greedy conservative principles.
I know, those poor rich people are really suffering, aren't they. And btw, you are misreading, or misconstruing the chart. People who earn over $138,000 includes a lot of people who earn a whole lot more than 138,000. People who earn $138,000 are themselves only paying about 10% which doesn't seem all that outrageous to me.
2. No you are misreading the chart. the % on the lower part is what percentage of the population makes between 138K and 195K. The percentage above the arch is what percent of the tax burden they pay.
So at the bottom you see: Top 1% ($480K) - that means 1% of the population makes that or higher. Then looking at the arch, you see that 1% of the population pays 39.4% of the tax burden.
Adding it all up, you have about 25% of the population paying 70% of the tax burden.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Post1. You just made my point. The people paying for the free healthcare will not be the poor so they will be getting it for free, despite your previous claim that "we all will be paying for it" as if it were being equally distributed by those who are using it.
2. No you are misreading the chart. the % on the lower part is what percentage of the population makes between 138K and 195K. The percentage above the arch is what percent of the tax burden they pay.
So at the bottom you see: Top 1% ($480K) - that means 1% of the population makes that or higher. Then looking at the arch, you see that 1% of the population pays 39.4% of the tax burden.
Adding it all up, you have about 25% of the population paying 70% of the tax burden.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostWhat I said was that it wasn't free, not that it wasn't free for some segment of the population who haven't a pot to piss in otherwise.
Yes, but the largest burden is on those with the largest incomes and those making $138,000 are not paying an inordinate amount. That's the way the tax system works Sparko which is what conservatives think is unfair. We simply have different priorities as far as the purpose of government should be. Liberals actually have the more christian perspective when it comes to government, conservatives are more about themselves in that respect.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostLike I said, the people who need 'free' healthcare the least are being made to pay for everyone else. Liberals always think it is fair to force someone else to pay for their stuff.
Many liberals DO believe that there is a social justice issue that needs attention when we have such a huge wealth discrepancy in this country, and we have people that need to work 2 jobs in order to keep food on the table, a roof overhead, and clothes on the backs of themselves and their family. Ultimately, the healthcare issue is a matter of timing. We all grow from young to old. As we do so, our healthcare needs increase at the same time that our income decreases. The current system leaves the young free to "opt out" of healthcare when they least need it, only to opt back in when they do and cannot afford it. The result is a massive burden on the system and we ALL end up paying for it in the end through higher premiums, higher taxes, and higher healthcare costs to cover those who cannot pay. A single payer system that covers everyone, young to old, levels the playing field for everyone. The young pay (by taxes) when they don't need it so they will have coverage (by taxes) when they actually do need it. Meanwhile, a single payer system gives enormous leverage to negotiate prices.
As for the argument, "I don't want the government telling me what I can and cannot get for healthcare," that argument has little/no weight. first, they are not limiting what someone can and cannot get; they are limiting what the program would pay for. And we are already being told what will be paid for, but we are being told that by the boards and managers of companies that are in the business to make a profit for their shareholders. We have zero control over these companies. We at least have voting control over our government.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSo - any statement that starts with "liberals always" is as wrong from the outset as statements that start "conservatives always." It is a meaningless superlative. And the resort to "fair" is a whine of a child, not the argument of an adult. Our president needs to learn this.
Many liberals DO believe that there is a social justice issue that needs attention when we have such a huge wealth discrepancy in this country, and we have people that need to work 2 jobs in order to keep food on the table, a roof overhead, and clothes on the backs of themselves and their family. Ultimately, the healthcare issue is a matter of timing. We all grow from young to old. As we do so, our healthcare needs increase at the same time that our income decreases. The current system leaves the young free to "opt out" of healthcare when they least need it, only to opt back in when they do and cannot afford it. The result is a massive burden on the system and we ALL end up paying for it in the end through higher premiums, higher taxes, and higher healthcare costs to cover those who cannot pay. A single payer system that covers everyone, young to old, levels the playing field for everyone. The young pay (by taxes) when they don't need it so they will have coverage (by taxes) when they actually do need it. Meanwhile, a single payer system gives enormous leverage to negotiate prices.
As for the argument, "I don't want the government telling me what I can and cannot get for healthcare," that argument has little/no weight. first, they are not limiting what someone can and cannot get; they are limiting what the program would pay for. And we are already being told what will be paid for, but we are being told that by the boards and managers of companies that are in the business to make a profit for their shareholders. We have zero control over these companies. We at least have voting control over our government.
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostIt's an illusion. The last 75 years of our country didn't really happen."Obama is not a brown-skinned, anti-war socialist who gives away free healthcare. You are thinking of Jesus." Episcopal Bishop of Arizona
I remember WinAce. Gone but not forgotten.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostAs someone who has said they are wealthy, I am sure you will be happy to give 40% of your earnings to put food and bandaids on the table of someone who is not working, working twice as much so you can afford to do the same for your own family.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostMaybe we should make it volunteer? Then all the rich liberals can support all the poor ones.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostIIRC companies started offering health benefits to entice workers during WWII when the government put a freeze on pay increases."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostFirst, I am not "wealthy," but neither I am poor. "Comfortable" would probably be a better description. You also have no idea what I give each year, Sparko, so you might want to withhold judgments.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostWe are talking more about forced giving here, carp. What you choose doesn't matter. As a "'comfortable" 1%'er you will be expected to pay your fair share! At least half of that money you are hoarding needs to go to those more deserving, and the government is the only one qualified to decide, not you.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostThat's what taxes are, Sparko, forced giving, and we elect our representatives to use those tax dollars as we see fit. Correct? Now we on the liberal side see the welfare of the least amongst us, including their ability to afford health insurance, as an important matter, worthy of our tax dollars. You conservatives don't see it that way. Conservatives basically think of the poor as lazy good for nothings who should just die and decrease the surplus population. So, fundamentally we just have a different take on government and on people. What I can never really figure out is how it is that conservatives claim to be the party of christian principles. Funny, the world we live in.
PS - I grew up as one of those poor people you keep wanting to help. I don't remember you or anyone else helping me. I worked my own way through trade school because my parents could not afford to send me to college. I then got a job and worked my way through college. I never once was on welfare or asked for a handout, or begged on the street. If I can do it, why can't others do it too? I find that liberals are the ones who dismiss the poor and the blacks as inferior. To you guys, poor people and black people are not good enough or smart enough to make it on their own. They are like little children who need the help of smart liberals like you to hold their hands. They are too dumb to get photo IDs, or go to school and learn a trade, or get a job, right?
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostJim, you are one of those 1%'ers too right? Independently wealthy you told us. How much of your money are you giving to support those poor people? I remember when you were complaining that taxes needed to be higher to support the poor, and CP told you that you are free to donate MORE taxes than you actually owe. Have you done that yet?
PS - I grew up as one of those poor people you keep wanting to help. I don't remember you or anyone else helping me. I worked my own way through trade school because my parents could not afford to send me to college. I then got a job and worked my way through college. I never once was on welfare or asked for a handout, or begged on the street. If I can do it, why can't others do it too? I find that liberals are the ones who dismiss the poor and the blacks as inferior. To you guys, poor people and black people are not good enough or smart enough to make it on their own. They are like little children who need the help of smart liberals like you to hold their hands. They are too dumb to get photo IDs, or go to school and learn a trade, or get a job, right?
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostI just think it’s interesting that a company offering a benefit is an example of socialism to Jimmy and Co.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostJim, you are one of those 1%'ers too right? Independently wealthy you told us. How much of your money are you giving to support those poor people? I remember when you were complaining that taxes needed to be higher to support the poor, and CP told you that you are free to donate MORE taxes than you actually owe. Have you done that yet?
EDIT: Do the instruction books for IRS still say "voluntary compliance"?Last edited by Cow Poke; 08-28-2018, 09:35 AM.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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