Free Health Care For All...

[lilpixieofterror]

No.

Which is why the metric needs to be different in measuring a doctor, hospital, or healthcare system.

I actually agree with this, and it doesn't change my observation: impugning "the VA" in general because on aspect of it is broken and needs fixing is simply not just. First of all, the rest of the VA appears to be working reasonably well (no better or worse than the rest of the U.S. healthcare system). And even for critical cases, a few articles about a few incidents in a few locations does not translate to all critical care situations in all venues. No data has even been provided that demonstrates that the problems are any better/worse than in the regular healthcare system for critical care situations.

My objection stands: general statements like "the VA is X" are simply not warranted, just, or defensible.

And mine stands quite well. It is an outrage that the VA failed on its primary mission and allowed veterans to die on its watch while dragging its feet. Would you be defending them if it was your kids or spouse that died on their watch?

[Sparko]

Carp's refusal to accept the evidence against the VA is starting to sound desperate.

[carpedm9587]

Which is why the metric needs to be different in measuring a doctor, hospital, or healthcare system.

The fact is that the VA dropped the ball and failed to do the most important job a hospital system is supposed to do. Save lives and they failed this several times over throughout the country.

The fact is that some people in the VA dropped the ball and failed to do the most important job a hospital system is supposed to do: save lives. And those people failed to do this at several times and in several places across the country.

At no point did I suggest anyone should "get a pass," or that the problems were acceptable, so this does not appear to be a response to what I actually said.

[QUOTE=lilpixieofterror;567816]The fact is that some people in the VA dropped the ball and failed to do the most important job a hospital system is supposed to do: save lives. And those people failed to do this at several times and in several places across the country.

It is an outrage that some people in the VA failed on its primary mission and allowed veterans to die on their while dragging their feet.

Would you be defending them if it was your kids or spouse that died on their watch?

Since the only people I have been defending are the 370K+ people who have NOT been shown to have done anything but serve their constituents, this does not appear to be relevant to the point I have been making.

[lilpixieofterror]

The fact is that some people in the VA dropped the ball and failed to do the most important job a hospital system is supposed to do: save lives. And those people failed to do this at several times and in several places across the country.

At no point did I suggest anyone should "get a pass," or that the problems were acceptable, so this does not appear to be a response to what I actually said.

Since the only people I have been defending are the 370K+ people who have NOT been shown to have done anything but serve their constituents, this does not appear to be relevant to the point I have been making.

[carpedm9587]

Do tell, do you defend the employees of Wells Fargo because a few of them frauded customers?

Wells Fargo was a documented case of corporate policy that led to the situation. So we can clearly refer to Wells Fargo as a corporate entity that implemented bad policy. However, I would likewise be careful about impugning anyone who works for Wells Fargo with my language.

That is not my experience, or the way I use language, hence my original comment. I find that the over generalization (i.e., Government X, VA Y, Immigrants Z, etc.) leads to broad-based, and largely unjustified, condemnation of an entire group.

A government ran health care system failed to go its job and allowed people to die on its watch.

Parts of a government run health care system failed to go their jobs and allowed people to die on their watch. With that statement, I have no objection.

At this point, I am repeating myself needlessly. So last word to you, unless you ask me a relevant question I have not already answered.

[lilpixieofterror]

Wells Fargo was a documented case of corporate policy that led to the situation. So we can clearly refer to Wells Fargo as a corporate entity that implemented bad policy. However, I would likewise be careful about impugning anyone who works for Wells Fargo with my language.



That is not my experience, or the way I use language, hence my original comment. I find that the over generalization (i.e., Government X, VA Y, Immigrants Z, etc.) leads to broad-based, and largely unjustified, condemnation of an entire group.



Parts of a government run health care system failed to go their jobs and allowed people to die on their watch. With that statement, I have no objection.

At this point, I am repeating myself needlessly. So last word to you, unless you ask me a relevant question I have not already answered.

And again, we go round and round as you throw up distraction after distraction to avoid the fact VA policies killed people. Why are so desperate to defend the VA and their attempts to cover up their failure?

[Sparko]

And again, we go round and round as you throw up distraction after distraction to avoid the fact VA policies killed people. Why are so desperate to defend the VA and their attempts to cover up their failure?

Yep. The problem was how the VA was being run, starting with Washington. The people working at local hospitals had to work under bad policies and management, and poor budgets. The problems were systemic. Carp just wants to focus on the local people and pretend that we are condemning them for the problems instead of the administration and management. Basically a distraction.

[carpedm9587]

And again, we go round and round as you throw up distraction after distraction to avoid the fact VA policies killed people.

I have seen numerous examples of how activities of VA personnel have harmed/killed people. I have not yet seen an example of an actual, published, VA policy has done so. Do you have an example? That would be similar to the Wells Fargo example.

Why are so desperate to defend the VA and their attempts to cover up their failure?

Since I have done none of these things, I have no response beyond this.

[lilpixieofterror]

I have seen numerous examples of how activities of VA personnel have harmed/killed people. I have not yet seen an example of an actual, published, VA policy has done so. Do you have an example? That would be similar to the Wells Fargo example.

Since I have done none of these things, I have no response beyond this.

[Cow Poke]

Did you not read the articles CP posted?

One of my biggest problems with government-run agencies is that it's nearly impossible to fire anybody (think VA and IRS) and bad conduct still results in outrageous bonuses.

TREASURY INSPECTOR GENERAL FOR TAX ADMINISTRATION

IMPACT ON TAXPAYERS

For Fiscal Year 2011, the IRS awarded almost $92 million in cash and almost 520,000 hours of time off to 70,500 of its approximately 104,400 employees. For Fiscal Year 2012, the IRS awarded $86 million in cash and almost 490,000 hours of time off to 67,870 of its approximately 98,000 employees. These awards are designed to recognize and reward IRS employees for their performance. Oversight and control over these awards is important to ensure proper stewardship of Government funds and the effectiveness of the awards system.

Veterans Affairs pays $142 million in bonuses amid scandals

[carpedm9587]

Did you not read the articles CP posted? Leadership failures and policy failures are cited several times as being a serious issue.

Yes, I read them, and I noted that use of language. What I did not note was one single example of an actual published policy that led to death/harm. The examples cited were all, IIRC, people acting outside the policies of the VA as an entity. In some cases, they adopted local practices to "fudge the numbers." If there was an actual VA policy that led to death/harm, I missed it completely. Can you point out the ones you are referring to? I'm assuming, since you cite this, that you hit one I missed and have one in mind?

There's a decent account of the Wells Fargo debacle here. It's Wikipedia, but the citations seem to check out pretty well. Two policies led to the problem. The first was the policy of requiring sales people to increase sales through cross-selling. This is the practice of positioning additional products with customer who already had a product. The second was to reward (bonuses) and punish (dismissal) employees who did not hit target benchmarks. The combination of those two policies (predictably) led to the problem. Individually, the policies are not an issue. In combination, they produce enormous pressure. Since people working in call centers are typically not high-wage employees, that pressure was even more significant.

Yes, there was fraud, and there were leadership problems. No question about it. I have never said otherwise.

I am aware of no formal VA policies that led to the problem. I am aware of individual choices and poor leadership in many parts of the organization. Wells Fargo were policy-based problems. I find those differences important. "Wells Fargo" as a corporate entity can be cited for its policy errors. That does not mean all of the individuals working for Wells Fargo were at fault. The VA (AFAICT) cannot be faulted for policy errors. It did have leadership issues that were localized, and individual failures that were also localized.

In general, I prefer to fault those who are at fault, and not paint all the associated individuals with the same brush.

Again, we're now going in circles, and I don't see we're likely to make any progress. I'll leave the last word to you, unless you ask me a question I have not already answered. As I write this, I realize I've said that a few times over the past couple of days in various threads. I just realized this is one of them...

I won't delete this post, but it'll be my last. Have at it.

[Cow Poke]

I won't delete this post, but it'll be my last. Have at it.

[carpedm9587]

Yeah...my bad...

I get involved with so many discussions, I forget which ones I've said, "enough said."

I need a secretary...

[lilpixieofterror]

Yes, I read them, and I noted that use of language. What I did not note was one single example of an actual published policy that led to death/harm. The examples cited were all, IIRC, people acting outside the policies of the VA as an entity. In some cases, they adopted local practices to "fudge the numbers." If there was an actual VA policy that led to death/harm, I missed it completely. Can you point out the ones you are referring to? I'm assuming, since you cite this, that you hit one I missed and have one in mind?

There's a decent account of the Wells Fargo debacle here. It's Wikipedia, but the citations seem to check out pretty well. Two policies led to the problem. The first was the policy of requiring sales people to increase sales through cross-selling. This is the practice of positioning additional products with customer who already had a product. The second was to reward (bonuses) and punish (dismissal) employees who did not hit target benchmarks. The combination of those two policies (predictably) led to the problem. Individually, the policies are not an issue. In combination, they produce enormous pressure. Since people working in call centers are typically not high-wage employees, that pressure was even more significant.

Yes, there was fraud, and there were leadership problems. No question about it. I have never said otherwise.

And yet here you are making excuses for their failures.

I am aware of no formal VA policies that led to the problem. I am aware of individual choices and poor leadership in many parts of the organization. Wells Fargo were policy-based problems. I find those differences important. "Wells Fargo" as a corporate entity can be cited for its policy errors. That does not mean all of the individuals working for Wells Fargo were at fault. The VA (AFAICT) cannot be faulted for policy errors. It did have leadership issues that were localized, and individual failures that were also localized.

In general, I prefer to fault those who are at fault, and not paint all the associated individuals with the same brush.

Have you seen me blame every last employee of the VA?

Again, we're now going in circles, and I don't see we're likely to make any progress. I'll leave the last word to you, unless you ask me a question I have not already answered. As I write this, I realize I've said that a few times over the past couple of days in various threads. I just realized this is one of them...

I won't delete this post, but it'll be my last. Have at it.

[Cow Poke]

Well doctor is one of the highest-paid professions here, perhaps the highest. A sister of mine and two of my friends are doctors here.

Anyway, it's not a lack of total doctor numbers, it's a lack of people wanting to live in rural areas.

The doctor is out? Why physicians are leaving their practices to pursue other careers

The mounting bureaucracy