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  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    No.
    Which is why the metric needs to be different in measuring a doctor, hospital, or healthcare system.

    I actually agree with this, and it doesn't change my observation: impugning "the VA" in general because on aspect of it is broken and needs fixing is simply not just. First of all, the rest of the VA appears to be working reasonably well (no better or worse than the rest of the U.S. healthcare system). And even for critical cases, a few articles about a few incidents in a few locations does not translate to all critical care situations in all venues. No data has even been provided that demonstrates that the problems are any better/worse than in the regular healthcare system for critical care situations.
    The fact is that the VA dropped the ball and failed to do the most important job a hospital system is supposed to do. Save lives and they failed this several times over throughout the country. Would you be pleased with a hospital that failed and killed members of your family by dragging their feet? I bet you wouldn’t be so stop trying to give the VA a pass on failing to do the main job of a hospital system. I wouldn’t give a private hospital a pass either.

    My objection stands: general statements like "the VA is X" are simply not warranted, just, or defensible.
    And mine stands quite well. It is an outrage that the VA failed on its primary mission and allowed veterans to die on its watch while dragging its feet. Would you be defending them if it was your kids or spouse that died on their watch?
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

    Comment


    • Carp's refusal to accept the evidence against the VA is starting to sound desperate.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
        Which is why the metric needs to be different in measuring a doctor, hospital, or healthcare system.

        The fact is that the VA dropped the ball and failed to do the most important job a hospital system is supposed to do. Save lives and they failed this several times over throughout the country.
        The fact is that some people in the VA dropped the ball and failed to do the most important job a hospital system is supposed to do: save lives. And those people failed to do this at several times and in several places across the country.

        Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
        Would you be pleased with a hospital that failed and killed members of your family by dragging their feet? I bet you wouldn’t be so stop trying to give the VA a pass on failing to do the main job of a hospital system. I wouldn’t give a private hospital a pass either.
        At no point did I suggest anyone should "get a pass," or that the problems were acceptable, so this does not appear to be a response to what I actually said.

        [QUOTE=lilpixieofterror;567816]The fact is that some people in the VA dropped the ball and failed to do the most important job a hospital system is supposed to do: save lives. And those people failed to do this at several times and in several places across the country.

        It is an outrage that some people in the VA failed on its primary mission and allowed veterans to die on their while dragging their feet.

        Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
        Would you be defending them if it was your kids or spouse that died on their watch?
        Since the only people I have been defending are the 370K+ people who have NOT been shown to have done anything but serve their constituents, this does not appear to be relevant to the point I have been making.
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          The fact is that some people in the VA dropped the ball and failed to do the most important job a hospital system is supposed to do: save lives. And those people failed to do this at several times and in several places across the country.

          At no point did I suggest anyone should "get a pass," or that the problems were acceptable, so this does not appear to be a response to what I actually said.

          Since the only people I have been defending are the 370K+ people who have NOT been shown to have done anything but serve their constituents, this does not appear to be relevant to the point I have been making.
          And thus arguing with you is like trying to nail jello to a wall and not worth the effort. Do tell, do you defend the employees of Wells Fargo because a few of them frauded customers? See, 99.99999% of people tend to figure that when you say, ‘x group failed’ you mean a small group, within that group, failed. This whole distraction game is you playing games to distract from the fact that a government ran health care system failed to go its job and allowed people to die on its watch. You want to distract from this fact why? My guess is that you don’t want to face what government health care systems tend to do, fail the few unlucky enough to get a rare, time sensitive, expensive conditions. Why don’t you want to face this little problem?
          Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 08-15-2018, 07:14 AM.
          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

          Comment


          • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
            Do tell, do you defend the employees of Wells Fargo because a few of them frauded customers?
            Wells Fargo was a documented case of corporate policy that led to the situation. So we can clearly refer to Wells Fargo as a corporate entity that implemented bad policy. However, I would likewise be careful about impugning anyone who works for Wells Fargo with my language.

            Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
            See, 99.99999% of people tend to figure that when you say, ‘x group failed’ you mean a small group, within that group, failed.
            That is not my experience, or the way I use language, hence my original comment. I find that the over generalization (i.e., Government X, VA Y, Immigrants Z, etc.) leads to broad-based, and largely unjustified, condemnation of an entire group.

            Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
            A government ran health care system failed to go its job and allowed people to die on its watch.
            Parts of a government run health care system failed to go their jobs and allowed people to die on their watch. With that statement, I have no objection.

            At this point, I am repeating myself needlessly. So last word to you, unless you ask me a relevant question I have not already answered.
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              Wells Fargo was a documented case of corporate policy that led to the situation. So we can clearly refer to Wells Fargo as a corporate entity that implemented bad policy. However, I would likewise be careful about impugning anyone who works for Wells Fargo with my language.



              That is not my experience, or the way I use language, hence my original comment. I find that the over generalization (i.e., Government X, VA Y, Immigrants Z, etc.) leads to broad-based, and largely unjustified, condemnation of an entire group.



              Parts of a government run health care system failed to go their jobs and allowed people to die on their watch. With that statement, I have no objection.

              At this point, I am repeating myself needlessly. So last word to you, unless you ask me a relevant question I have not already answered.
              And again, we go round and round as you throw up distraction after distraction to avoid the fact VA policies killed people. Why are so desperate to defend the VA and their attempts to cover up their failure?
              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

              Comment


              • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                And again, we go round and round as you throw up distraction after distraction to avoid the fact VA policies killed people. Why are so desperate to defend the VA and their attempts to cover up their failure?
                Yep. The problem was how the VA was being run, starting with Washington. The people working at local hospitals had to work under bad policies and management, and poor budgets. The problems were systemic. Carp just wants to focus on the local people and pretend that we are condemning them for the problems instead of the administration and management. Basically a distraction.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                  And again, we go round and round as you throw up distraction after distraction to avoid the fact VA policies killed people.
                  I have seen numerous examples of how activities of VA personnel have harmed/killed people. I have not yet seen an example of an actual, published, VA policy has done so. Do you have an example? That would be similar to the Wells Fargo example.

                  Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                  Why are so desperate to defend the VA and their attempts to cover up their failure?
                  Since I have done none of these things, I have no response beyond this.
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    I have seen numerous examples of how activities of VA personnel have harmed/killed people. I have not yet seen an example of an actual, published, VA policy has done so. Do you have an example? That would be similar to the Wells Fargo example.
                    Did you not read the articles CP posted? Leadership failures and policy failures are cited several times as being a serious issue. The Wells Fargo scandal wasn’t published policy that I can recall and was more of leaders encouraging the fraud. Unless you can show some written policies that told Wells Fargo employees to screw over customers. Both cases have several issues of fraud and leadership failures. Unless lying to Congress and the American People about things that happened under your watch isn’t fraud anymore.

                    Since I have done none of these things, I have no response beyond this.
                    Yeah you do and you’re even denying what pretty much everyone else sees. Both the Wells Fargo fraud cases and the VA fraud have a lot in common. Both violated established laws, both had failed leaders that knew this and choose to ignore it or cover it up, both lied about their problems, and both were exposed by whistle blowers. Yet you keep making excuses for one and condemning the other. Why?
                    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                      Did you not read the articles CP posted?
                      One of my biggest problems with government-run agencies is that it's nearly impossible to fire anybody (think VA and IRS) and bad conduct still results in outrageous bonuses.

                      TREASURY INSPECTOR GENERAL FOR TAX ADMINISTRATION


                      IMPACT ON TAXPAYERS

                      For Fiscal Year 2011, the IRS awarded almost $92 million in cash and almost 520,000 hours of time off to 70,500 of its approximately 104,400 employees. For Fiscal Year 2012, the IRS awarded $86 million in cash and almost 490,000 hours of time off to 67,870 of its approximately 98,000 employees. These awards are designed to recognize and reward IRS employees for their performance. Oversight and control over these awards is important to ensure proper stewardship of Government funds and the effectiveness of the awards system.


                      Veterans Affairs pays $142 million in bonuses amid scandals

                      WASHINGTON – The Department of Veterans Affairs doled out more than $142 million in bonuses to executives and employees for performance in 2014 even as scandals over veterans' health care and other issues racked the agency.

                      Among the recipients were claims processors in a Philadelphia benefits office that investigators dubbed the worst in the country last year. They received $300 to $900 each. Managers in Tomah, Wis., got $1,000 to $4,000, even though they oversaw the over-prescription of opiates to veterans – one of whom died.

                      The VA also rewarded executives who managed construction of a facility in Denver, a disastrous project years overdue and more than $1 billion over budget. They took home $4,000 to $8,000 each. And in St. Cloud, Minn., where an internal investigation report last year outlined mismanagement that led to mass resignations of health care providers, the chief of staff cited by investigators received a performance bonus of almost $4,000.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                        Did you not read the articles CP posted? Leadership failures and policy failures are cited several times as being a serious issue.
                        Yes, I read them, and I noted that use of language. What I did not note was one single example of an actual published policy that led to death/harm. The examples cited were all, IIRC, people acting outside the policies of the VA as an entity. In some cases, they adopted local practices to "fudge the numbers." If there was an actual VA policy that led to death/harm, I missed it completely. Can you point out the ones you are referring to? I'm assuming, since you cite this, that you hit one I missed and have one in mind?

                        Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                        The Wells Fargo scandal wasn’t published policy that I can recall and was more of leaders encouraging the fraud. Unless you can show some written policies that told Wells Fargo employees to screw over customers.
                        There's a decent account of the Wells Fargo debacle here. It's Wikipedia, but the citations seem to check out pretty well. Two policies led to the problem. The first was the policy of requiring sales people to increase sales through cross-selling. This is the practice of positioning additional products with customer who already had a product. The second was to reward (bonuses) and punish (dismissal) employees who did not hit target benchmarks. The combination of those two policies (predictably) led to the problem. Individually, the policies are not an issue. In combination, they produce enormous pressure. Since people working in call centers are typically not high-wage employees, that pressure was even more significant.

                        Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                        Both cases have several issues of fraud and leadership failures. Unless lying to Congress and the American People about things that happened under your watch isn’t fraud anymore.
                        Yes, there was fraud, and there were leadership problems. No question about it. I have never said otherwise.

                        Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                        Yeah you do and you’re even denying what pretty much everyone else sees. Both the Wells Fargo fraud cases and the VA fraud have a lot in common. Both violated established laws, both had failed leaders that knew this and choose to ignore it or cover it up, both lied about their problems, and both were exposed by whistle blowers. Yet you keep making excuses for one and condemning the other. Why?
                        I am aware of no formal VA policies that led to the problem. I am aware of individual choices and poor leadership in many parts of the organization. Wells Fargo were policy-based problems. I find those differences important. "Wells Fargo" as a corporate entity can be cited for its policy errors. That does not mean all of the individuals working for Wells Fargo were at fault. The VA (AFAICT) cannot be faulted for policy errors. It did have leadership issues that were localized, and individual failures that were also localized.

                        In general, I prefer to fault those who are at fault, and not paint all the associated individuals with the same brush.

                        Again, we're now going in circles, and I don't see we're likely to make any progress. I'll leave the last word to you, unless you ask me a question I have not already answered. As I write this, I realize I've said that a few times over the past couple of days in various threads. I just realized this is one of them...

                        I won't delete this post, but it'll be my last. Have at it.
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          I won't delete this post, but it'll be my last. Have at it.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            Yeah...my bad...

                            I get involved with so many discussions, I forget which ones I've said, "enough said."

                            I need a secretary...
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                              Yes, I read them, and I noted that use of language. What I did not note was one single example of an actual published policy that led to death/harm. The examples cited were all, IIRC, people acting outside the policies of the VA as an entity. In some cases, they adopted local practices to "fudge the numbers." If there was an actual VA policy that led to death/harm, I missed it completely. Can you point out the ones you are referring to? I'm assuming, since you cite this, that you hit one I missed and have one in mind?
                              Do you seriously think the VA leadership had absolutely no clue what was going on? If you believe that, I have this bridge to sell you in New York for very cheap. You didn’t read them carefully because the top three cited cases where VA officials lied to Congress and the American public about the depth of the problems within the VA. If the leadership truly had no clue what was going on, they are poor leaders and deserve to be fired for their poor leadership. Either answer reflects poorly upon the upper leadership. They were either liars that lied to protect themselves or idiots that were unfit to lead the second largest department in the federal government. Take your pick of what choice you prefer.

                              There's a decent account of the Wells Fargo debacle here. It's Wikipedia, but the citations seem to check out pretty well. Two policies led to the problem. The first was the policy of requiring sales people to increase sales through cross-selling. This is the practice of positioning additional products with customer who already had a product. The second was to reward (bonuses) and punish (dismissal) employees who did not hit target benchmarks. The combination of those two policies (predictably) led to the problem. Individually, the policies are not an issue. In combination, they produce enormous pressure. Since people working in call centers are typically not high-wage employees, that pressure was even more significant.
                              You didn’t read the articles very closely, did you? The VA had a policy of how long you had to wait for an appointment and they couldn’t make these wait times, so they created a secret, off the books waiting list, so they could give an appearance of shorter wait times. How does this effect things? Easy, the VA upper leadership is populated by retired military leaders who are used to giving orders and expecting things to happen. They don’t like being told something can’t be done, thus how these secret list were created. So again, lots of similarities. A culture combined with an unrealistic goal lead to these scandals.

                              Yes, there was fraud, and there were leadership problems. No question about it. I have never said otherwise.
                              And yet here you are making excuses for their failures.

                              I am aware of no formal VA policies that led to the problem. I am aware of individual choices and poor leadership in many parts of the organization. Wells Fargo were policy-based problems. I find those differences important. "Wells Fargo" as a corporate entity can be cited for its policy errors. That does not mean all of the individuals working for Wells Fargo were at fault. The VA (AFAICT) cannot be faulted for policy errors. It did have leadership issues that were localized, and individual failures that were also localized.
                              I explained to you the problem. Unrealistic goals combined with poor leadership created this scandal. How do I know thus? Easy, I’ve been in the military a long time and know a few people that went to work for the VA and are seeing VA doctors. Many will tell you upper leadership is populated by retired officers that still think they are in the military and don’t like being told something isn’t working or going to work. Thus why these secret waiting list were created. So yeah, policy combined with bad leadship created this problem.

                              In general, I prefer to fault those who are at fault, and not paint all the associated individuals with the same brush.
                              Have you seen me blame every last employee of the VA?

                              Again, we're now going in circles, and I don't see we're likely to make any progress. I'll leave the last word to you, unless you ask me a question I have not already answered. As I write this, I realize I've said that a few times over the past couple of days in various threads. I just realized this is one of them...
                              I’m going in circles because I’m explaining things to someone that thinks they know what is going on, but doesn’t. The VA policies and toxic leadership is the cause of the problems of the VA.

                              I won't delete this post, but it'll be my last. Have at it.
                              Didn’t you already say this? See you next post.
                              Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 08-17-2018, 11:38 PM.
                              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                                Well doctor is one of the highest-paid professions here, perhaps the highest. A sister of mine and two of my friends are doctors here.

                                Anyway, it's not a lack of total doctor numbers, it's a lack of people wanting to live in rural areas.

                                The doctor is out? Why physicians are leaving their practices to pursue other careers


                                The mounting bureaucracy

                                This “bottleneck effect” doesn’t usually sour grads on staying the course, Fowler finds, but he does see plenty of doctors in the later stages of their careers hang up their stethoscopes earlier than expected. Some cite electronic health records (EHRs) as part of the reason — especially old school doctors who don’t pride themselves on their computer skills. New research by Stanford Medicine, conducted by The Harris Poll, found that 59 percent think EHRs "need a complete overhaul;" while 40 percent see "more challenges with EHRs than benefits."
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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