Mike Pence on how presidents should behave

[Charles]

"Good people don't go into politics." Donald Trump

[Cow Poke]

Pence did not write about himself but the American president. He wrote about the role model the American president should be.

Correct, and he can fulfill that.

He now supports someone who by no means can serve as that role model.

Trump is his boss. Is Pence going out and "supporting" Trump as the person Pence described?

If he is doing this in order to pave the way for his own presidency

Nobody ever said that.

he is basically breaking with his ideals about what the president should be in order to pave the way for himself.

Nope - he is responsible for his own conduct.

And you seem to still think he can be a role model after having done that?

If he lives up to his own ideals, absolutely.

It is beyond me.

Because you have an incredibly biased viewpoint.

[Cow Poke]

I am amazed at how many strange explanations you are willing to make in order for all of this dirt to make some kind of sense.

Oh really? How many "explanations" have I made? I believe I made one assumption, and have been pretty consistent with it.

[Charles]

Oh really? How many "explanations" have I made? I believe I made one assumption, and have been pretty consistent with it.

In this case the explanation is that Pence supports "his boss" though he is unfit by the criteria Pence wrote about. And in order to avoid seeing this as being hypocritical you come up with an assumption that he supports an unfit president in order to become the president himself and you fail to see that the sell out of his principles by supporting "his boss" (whom no one can force him to support) makes the case for Pence to be a rather bad president himself, though it is going to be very hard to do worse than Trump. What a wonderful explanation of why the dirt makes so much sense.

[Cow Poke]

In this case the explanation is that Pence supports "his boss"

No, that's YOUR "explanation" that Pence "supports" his boss.

though he is unfit by the criteria Pence wrote about. And in order to avoid seeing this as being hypocritical you come up with an assumption that he supports

And, again, YOUR use of "supports", not mine.

an unfit president in order to become the president himself and you fail to see that the sell out of his principles by supporting "his boss" (whom no one can force him to support) makes the case for Pence to be a rather bad president himself, though it is going to be very hard to do worse than Trump. What a wonderful explanation of why the dirt makes so much sense.

You're making "burning man" look like a pilot light on a water heater with your straw man.

[Charles]

No, that's YOUR "explanation" that Pence "supports" his boss.



And, again, YOUR use of "supports", not mine.



You're making "burning man" look like a pilot light on a water heater with your straw man.

If you could please comment on more sentences at a time, you would not rip them out of the context in which they were provided. Now you even comment on half sentences. It's a little too easy to come up with arguments againt sentences that are not even finished.

I assume we can agree that if you are the vice president, you are a part of the administration and if you smile and nod everytime the president says something on tv you support the president? If you take that role when you could have declined it and when you would have very good reason to say "This goes against my ideal of who a president should be" you must bear the responsibility for having done so.

And you came up with the idea that he is doing it in order for him to become the president himself one day. So you still need to show why that is not a sell out of ideals in order to get to power.

[Cow Poke]

If you could please comment on more sentences at a time, you would not rip them out of the context in which they were provided. Now you even comment on half sentences. It's a little too easy to come up with arguments againt sentences that are not even finished.

I'll respond as I wish, thank you.

I assume we can agree that if you are the vice president, you are a part of the administration and if you smile and nod everytime the president says something on tv you support the president? If you take that role when you could have declined it and when you would have very good reason to say "This goes against my ideal of who a president should be" you must bear the responsibility for having done so.

And you came up with the idea that he is doing it in order for him to become the president himself one day. So you still need to show why that is not a sell out of ideals in order to get to power.

I would use the word "tolerate", not "support". That's your word. I guess you think Pence should be a disloyal son-of-a-biscuit and frown and scowl every time he's around Trump.

I believe Pence is tolerating the situation as best he can, and will live up to his own standards.

[Mountain Man]

In this case the explanation is that Pence supports "his boss"...

Of course he does, just like I support my boss in so far as it relates to my job. This does not imply that I support and agree with everything he has ever said or done. I believe a boss should set an example by not smoking, but my boss smokes. Does this mean that I am now morally culpable for what I believe is an immoral abuse of one's body? Of course not. That would be absurd.

Pence can fully believe that the President of the US should set a high moral standard while being fully aware of the fact that his current boss is not that person. There is no hypocrisy here no matter how furiously you beat your little self-righteous drum.

[Cow Poke]

Of course he does, just like I support my boss in so far as it relates to my job. This does not imply that I support and agree with everything he has ever said or done. I believe a boss should set an example by not smoking, but my boss smokes. Does this mean that I am now morally culpable for what I believe is an immoral abuse of one's body? Of course not. That would be absurd.

EGGzackly.

Your boss may actually have some good work-related polices - and in those, you support him. Outside of work, he may be a womanizer or a gambler - doesn't mean you support either of those things.

Pence can fully believe that the President of the US should set a high moral standard while being fully aware of the fact that his current boss is not that person. There is no hypocrisy here no matter how furiously you beat your little self-righteous drum.

Wanna bet he'll just double down on this?

[Charles]

I would use the word "tolerate", not "support". That's your word. I guess you think Pence should be a disloyal son-of-a-biscuit and frown and scowl every time he's around Trump.

I believe Pence is tolerating the situation as best he can, and will live up to his own standards.

So he is "tolerating" him by nodding everytime he says even the worst things on tv. And he is not only "tolerating" him, he is also working for him as a part of the administration. No one forced him to do that. He could have simply said no. Judging by what he read, he does not think Trump is fit, so why work for him? If he stod by his principles that is what he would have done. That is not being "a disloyal son-of-a-biscuit". It is being true to your principles. He was not and became a part of one of the worst administrations in American history. He is certainly not a person I would ask for moral guidance. Just ask all those who suffer the consequence of the policy of this administration.

Once again "his standards" were not a standard for himself. Not even a standard for himself if he became the president. It was a standard for the American president. The American president is currently Donald Trump who by no means live up to the standard and whom Pence works for every day. So he already broke with the principles before he might get the chance to become the president himself.

[Mountain Man]

EGGzackly.

Your boss may actually have some good work-related polices - and in those, you support him. Outside of work, he may be a womanizer or a gambler - doesn't mean you support either of those things.



Wanna bet he'll just double down on this?

And if my boss ever asked me to do something that conflicts with my core values then I would refuse, and I believe he respects me enough that there would be no repercussions -- either that or I would hold my head high as I looked for a new job knowing I did the right thing.

[Cow Poke]

So he is "tolerating" him by nodding everytime he says even the worst things on tv. And he is not only "tolerating" him, he is also working for him as a part of the administration.

I think the first part is your perception - I don't sit there staring at Pence to see his reaction, and it could well be that he's "nodding" in approval of the polices being discussed.

Charles, you hate Trump, that's pretty clear. And you find it necessary to smear Pence by association. How long do you plan on blogging on about this?

[One Bad Pig]

What leads you to the conclusion that he is a hostile witness? I have not seen you provide anything to justify it. The ad hominem gets you exactly nowhere.

1) is 100% negative, to the point of waxing apocalyptic
2) writes for the Guardian, a typically hostile paper
3) vox, a typically hostile website

I could well add
4) relied on by you; I have yet to see you rely on something from any other perspective than relentlessly anti-Trump

I'm sure you'll find another alleged fallacy to nitpick; much easier than conceding I might have a valid point.

[Charles]

Of course he does, just like I support my boss in so far as it relates to my job. This does not imply that I support and agree with everything he has ever said or done. I believe a boss should set an example by not smoking, but my boss smokes. Does this mean that I am now morally culpable for what I believe is an immoral abuse of one's body? Of course not. That would be absurd.

Pence can fully believe that the President of the US should set a high moral standard while being fully aware of the fact that his current boss is not that person. There is no hypocrisy here no matter how furiously you beat your little self-righteous drum.

It seems to me that the most self righteous are those who always find a way to explain why priciples do not matter if they get in their way.

If it is in Pence's best interest you no longer need a president who can act as a role model though he said the opposite at a time when it was in his intetest to say so. Enjoy.

[Charles]

1) is 100% negative, to the point of waxing apocalyptic
2) writes for the Guardian, a typically hostile paper
3) vox, a typically hostile website

I could well add
4) relied on by you; I have yet to see you rely on something from any other perspective than relentlessly anti-Trump

I'm sure you'll find another alleged fallacy to nitpick; much easier than conceding I might have a valid point.

And here comes the fallacy nitpick. Did you show where he was wrong? Or was it all ad hominem and the genetic fallacy?