Mike Pence on how presidents should behave

[Cow Poke]

Mine came with bacon. Bet you can guess what happened to that

Well, that's why I didn't mention the bacon - it wasn't on there long enough even for the group picture. It WAS, however, crispy like we used to get before the war!

[rogue06]

Well, that's why I didn't mention the bacon - it wasn't on there long enough even for the group picture. It WAS, however, crispy like we used to get before the war!

[Charles]

Allegedly, from a hostile witness. Forgive me if I take that with a large grain of salt.

What leads you to the conclusion that he is a hostile witness? I have not seen you provide anything to justify it. The ad hominem gets you exactly nowhere.

[Leonhard]

That women have been known to falsely accuse people of rape is quite sufficient evidence that the policy is justified.

It does appear to be quite rare. But even if it was only a few percent who did I'd agree taking precautions like Pence did is sound.

[Charles]

It does appear to be quite rare. But even if it was only a few percent who did I'd agree taking precautions like Pence did is sound.

Well it is up to him but I think it shows a rather unbalanced view on how men and women can have other relations than sexual relations. If grown up men and women cannot talk alone in a room without the idea of sex or false accusations flying around I think the very small risk has done a lot of damage in and of itself in all the cases in which nothing would have happened. It compares to some extent to women who cover their faces for religious reason with the intent that I should not get dirty ideas in my head. It does not only say something about them but also about how they view me and my possible intentions. They are absolutely free to do so and I support that. The same goes for Pence. He as absolutely free to do it. However one cannot escape what it says about one self and what it says about others. Even if it is a general policy it still says something about what means most to you and there is a price to be paid in lost confidence in my opinion.

[Leonhard]

Well it is up to him but I think it shows a rather unbalanced view on how men and women can have other relations than sexual relations.

I don't recall Pence discussing how other men should act, but that he did this way himself. I can personally see no fault in it. At least nothing for anything to become upset about.

It compares to some extent to women who cover their faces for religious reason with the intent that I should not get dirty ideas in my head.

I believe women should have the right to veil. I know a lot of feminist muslims who veil as its a part of their cultural heritage that they're proud of. Your own misguided views on veiling I'm not interested in.

However one cannot escape what it says about one self and what it says about others.

It says Pence want to make certain no one accuses him falsely, or that nothing unbecoming happens, and that this helps him achieve those goals. It tells me he is a dedicated Christian man, and shows he's willing to do what it takes keep himself consistent, no matter what people like you think about it.

[Charles]

I don't recall Pence discussing how other men should act, but that he did this way himself. I can personally see no fault in it. At least nothing for anything to become upset about.

I never said I was upset and I generally feel you misunderstood the purpose of what I wrote at least to some extent. I actually said I supported his right to do this. What I pointed to was rather that by having such a policy you allow for something very unlikely to happen to have rather big consequences in cases where nothing would have happened. It is all very basically about the question whether I can meet other women without the idea of having sex with them or the idea that the will accuse me falsely should set certain conditions around that meeting. I have had quite many talks with women that would have been different if I followed Pence's policy. So, all I did was to say there is a price to pay and that he is free to do so if he thinks it is worth it.

I believe women should have the right to veil. I know a lot of feminist muslims who veil as its a part of their cultural heritage that they're proud of. Your own misguided views on veiling I'm not interested in.

My view is not misguided. That is a part of the religious base for it. However some may veil for other reasons. I support their right to do so in all cases. Once again I only point to the signals it can send if used for specific purposes.

It says Pence want to make certain no one accuses him falsely, or that nothing unbecoming happens, and that this helps him achieve those goals. It tells me he is a dedicated Christian man, and shows he's willing to do what it takes keep himself consistent, no matter what people like you think about it.

And the precondition for the need to "make certain" is that you find it possible that someone would accuse you falsely or that you find it possible that something "unbecoming" happens. The first part is based on a lack of trust. The fact that this trust is not present set other conditions for whatever talk you may have. So there is a price to pay. The worry that something "unbecoming" happens also sets the scene for the relation between man and women in which the very idea that you could have sex with them needs to put certian conditions around everything else you can do with them. I think that price is way too high. If he is willing to pay it fine by me but I have found great values and insights and had many trustful conversations that I would have missed if a had done like Pence.

[Leonhard]

having such a policy ... have rather big consequences in cases where nothing would have happened. ... I have had quite many talks with women that would have been different if I followed Pence's policy.

Can you give some concrete examples of conversations you believe Pence (or you) wouldn't be able to carry out with a woman, if another woman was present in the room. I honestly can't think of any.

...you find it possible that someone would accuse you falsely...

It is very rare, at least it seems so, for an abused to falsely accuse someone of sexual abuse. That does not mean it doesn't occur. A chance even of a few percent that can be reduced to zero with some relatively modest accommodations seems like the actions of someone who is prudential.

The worry that something "unbecoming" happens also sets the scene

Yet in the Pence case, it seems harder to have something like that be the case. Pence at least feels he needs another woman present, or his wife (I can't remember exactly), and doesn't want to be in a one on one private setting with another woman. That's his choice. I see no problem with it whatsoever, and unlike you I don't think there's any reasonable case to be made that it impairs his functionality.

[Charles]

Can you give some concrete examples of conversations you don't believe Pence (or you) wouldn't be able to carry out with a woman, if another woman was present in the room. I honestly can't think of any.

I have had quite many conversations on personal or professional matters where I or a woman has been open and talked about issues we would not have talked about if a third person had been present. It is talks like those that I would certainly not want to miss and I think Pence pays a very high price. That is my basic point. I do not have a problem with him doing it, it is just that my good advice for others would be not to do so because you miss a lot at least judging from my experience.

It is very rare, at least it seems so, for an abused to falsely accuse someone of sexual abuse. That does not mean it doesn't occur. A chance even of a few percent that can be reduced to zero with some relatively modest accommodations seems like the actions of someone who is prudential.

It is just that there is a basic trust that is lost. If I cannot have a conversation with another women without having to allow for the possibility that she will falsely accuse me and therefore a third person needs to be present we are going to have a talk that is not as trust based as it could have been. And if we even go for the unlikely. Something ubnecoming could also happen among three persons, two males or whatever, so where do you draw the line? Of course that is a choice and I think he is paying too high a price but it is absolutely his decision.

Yet in the Pence case, it seems harder to have something like that be the case. Pence at least feels he needs another woman present, or his wife (I can't remember exactly), and doesn't want to be in a one on one private setting with another woman. That's his choice. I see no problem with it whatsoever, and unlike you I don't think there's any reasonable case to be made that it impairs his functionality.

I have not said it impairs his functionality and repeatedly said it is his own choice which I would not advice anyone to take but he is using his freedoms and I use mine. That is why we can have interesting discussions and share views.

[Cow Poke]

It does appear to be quite rare. But even if it was only a few percent who did I'd agree taking precautions like Pence did is sound.

It seems liberals are just flat out against prudence and common sense in matters like these.

[Cow Poke]

Well it is up to him but I think it shows a rather unbalanced view on how men and women can have other relations than sexual relations. If grown up men and women cannot talk alone in a room without the idea of sex or false accusations flying around I think the very small risk has done a lot of damage in and of itself in all the cases in which nothing would have happened.

Again, what damage?

[Leonhard]

It seems liberals are just flat out against prudence and common sense in matters like these.

I think some liberals would see it as regressive, but I just see it as Pence and the culture he's from. I believe how men go about these things should be individual. I don't think I'd need another woman chaperoning me if I had a wife, and I had to do pair programming with a developer who was a woman. But someone else might feel differently.

Its that people criticise Pence for this as if there's something to criticise, this I don't like.

[Cow Poke]

I think some liberals would see it as regressive, but I just see it as Pence and the culture he's from. I believe how men go about these things should be individual. I don't think I'd need another woman chaperoning me if I had a wife, and I had to do pair programming with a developer who was a woman. But someone else might feel differently.

But your example is more like dealing with a peer, yes? Maybe that's what's missing.

Its that people criticise Pence for this as if there's something to criticise, this I don't like.

Amen. I think it's just another "we hate him, so we're gonna hate that, too!"

[Littlejoe]

It seems liberals are just flat out against prudence and common sense in matters like these.

It's almost laughable, the extremes they liberals will go to to find SOMETHING to find fault in another person...

I work for a large, multi-national Major Health Insurance Provider. They have a policy that a manager (male or female) can never be one on one in a closed door room with a worker (male or female). As a result, most managers, when the need to one on one, have them at a cubicle. If a closed door meeting needs to take place, the manager must always get another manager to join them in the room. This company is a very progressive company and I don't think their rules are out of line. Therefore, I don't think Pence is out of line either!

[Cow Poke]

It's almost laughable, the extremes they liberals will go to to find SOMETHING to find fault in another person...

I work for a large, multi-national Major Health Insurance Provider. They have a policy that a manager (male or female) can never be one on one in a closed door room with a worker (male or female). As a result, most managers, when the need to one on one, have them at a cubicle. If a closed door meeting needs to take place, the manager must always get another manager to join them in the room. This company is a very progressive company and I don't think their rules are out of line. Therefore, I don't think Pence is out of line either!

Yeah, as I've stated, the ONLY time I had somebody really upset about my "prudish behavior" was the woman who had had an affair with another pastor while she was still married to her second husband. The meetings would happen in his office at night.

There has ALWAYS been a way to conduct business without compromising convictions.