Originally posted by One Bad Pig
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Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View PostSure, but at the same time I have a bigger problem with practices like praying to the saints since it seems to kind of quasi-deify them. I have no problem with dead saints praying for us. I have a problem with trying to interact with them. I don't see any attestation for that in apostolic teaching. I don't think any Protestant is claiming that the method of a worship service goes back to the apostles or is part of the tradition.
I have no idea what point you're trying to make with your last sentence.
Sure, but I also find it interesting that I have a hard time thinking of Orthodox New Testament scholars. Asked Mike just in case to see if I was missing anyone. He couldn't think of one either.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYou have no problem with dead saints praying for us, but have a problem with asking them to do so?
I have no idea what point you're trying to make with your last sentence.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYou have no problem with dead saints praying for us, but have a problem with asking them to do so?
I have no idea what point you're trying to make with your last sentence.
(Western) scholarship is generally in English, German, French, or Spanish. Not a whole lot of Orthodox in those languages, as they're typically Western. Easterners have tended to be under Muslim or Communist rule, which makes scholarship difficult. Off-hand, I can think of Andrew Louth, John McGuckin, David Bentley Hart, Timothy Ware.... Significantly, two of the four are priests, and another is a bishop. Those who are Orthodox and want to study theology tend to become priests, not focus on an academic career in scholarship.
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The only biblical mention of attempting to communicate to the dead I can think of offhand is Saul trying to reach Samuel via the witch of Endor, and that was quite a negative mention."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Scrawly View PostIf we don't have biblical confirmation for something, why engage in it?"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostThis is the exact argument the Church of Christ uses to ban instrumental music in worship, incidentally. It's an argument from silence at best.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View PostYes. I have a problem with communicating with the dead.
I don't think we claim that the way we worship goes back to the apostles. Claiming that praying to the saints is what the apostles taught is problematic to me since I can find no evidence that they did.
But there are plenty over here, but yet they are not publishing apparently in New Testament scholarship.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostAre they dead? Matt. 22:29-32, Heb. 12:1-2; see also Matt. 17:1-4. In praying to the saints, I am not attempting two-way conversation; I am assuming that as witnesses, they can see my petition and pass it on to our mutual Lord.
I'm not claiming definitively that the apostles taught prayer to the saints, as that would be an argument from silence. Neither can you definitively claim that the apostles disagreed with it, for the same reason. I can legitimately claim that my worship service goes back that far, even though it's not spelled out by the apostles, because it still bears a distinct resemblance to the Jewish synagogue service (as well as to Justin Martyr's synopsis from the mid 2nd century). Non-liturgical Protestant services are naturally quite different.
Orthodox numbers here are comparatively few. Further, scholarship is a largely rationalist child of the Enlightenment, and Orthodox theology tends to be lived rather than debated. There are Orthodox scholars, but it's not going to be a point of emphasis. I have no idea how you're defining "New Testament scholarship" or why those I mentioned don't fall within it.
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Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View PostI have a problem with this because dead means something. We are to mourn for the dead in Christ because they are absent from us. Further, if they are witnesses, they don't need to be told what's going on. They already see it.
If I do not see it backed in Scripture and I see passages in Scripture that make me question it, then I have no reason to think it's anything Biblical.
New Testament scholarship refers to someone with a Ph.D. in a relevant field writing on the New Testament such as the New Testament, Classical history, or ancient history. I am more interested in the historicity aspect instead of the theological one.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostOf course they don't NEED to be told. We don't NEED to tell God our requests either. Prayer is not about communication; it is about communion and fellowship.
In that case, you'd need to point to such passages and make a solid case for why they make you do so.Hrm. I can't think of any off-hand which don't have a theological and/or practical angle to them - which I don't have a problem with. If I walk into a random Orthodox bookstore, almost every book is going to be interesting to me in some way. If I walk into a typical Christian bookstore, almost nothing is going to interest me - been that way since well before I even considered Orthodoxy. The technical stuff which does interest me is rarely present; if I'm lucky, there will be a book or two by N. T. Wright or Hank Hanegraaff to peruse. Does the technical stuff help the typical Christian? No. Does the technical stuff convince people to convert? Rarely. It's interesting, but not very practical. There are certainly scholarly works from the Orthodox perspective - check out The Institute for Byzantine and Modern Greek Studies, or Holy Cross Orthodox Press, (or St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, which published the church history books I recommended), but much of the output is of a practical nature.
Too many apologetics books do something of the former without explaining the latter.
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Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View PostSure, but Scripture regularly tells us our Fellowship is with the Father and the Son and we mourn for those who have died. Nothing is there about having fellowship and communion with them.
I have enough problems with the banality of Christian bookstores. You won't hear a problem from me on that, but I think that's more of a problem of modernity instead of a problem inherent in Protestantism. I think in whatever tradition you're in, you will find people who take it seriously and people who don't. I also don't think NT scholarship alone is enough. It needs to be applied. Theology and historicity need to go together. For instance, shortly after Allie and I married, my grandmother died. I was one of three ministers who did her funeral. I had ten minutes to speak and was the last one. I spent the first five talking about how we know the resurrection is true. I spent the last five talking about the difference it makes.
Too many apologetics books do something of the former without explaining the latter.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostGoing back to the Scriptures I cited: We are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses; that sounds like people close by, not far off in the distance. God is not the God of the dead, but the living; while the body may be turned to dust, we are not wholly body. Let's add in another: To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. And another - the book of Revelation generally shows the presence of at least the martyrs in heaven. Are you telling me we should have fellowship and communion with the Father and the Son, but not those present with them? I also note that you're arguing wholly from silence here - you cannot point to a scripture that says we should ignore the dead, as if they're not a part of the Body of Christ.
Orthodoxy relies less on argument than on pointing to miracles of healing and resurrection to show the truth of the Resurrection. The difference it makes is abundantly shown in the texts of the Pentecostarion and Sunday Octoechos; every Sunday is a celebration of the Resurrection.
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