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Thread: Book Plunge: An Outline of Orthodox Dogmatic Patristics

  1. #11
    Department Head Apologiaphoenix's Avatar
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    I have looked at the supposed Biblical support and I always find it lacking. For a widespread practice, I would think one would find more attestation in the Scriptures. I also know about Mary. John Meier told me the same in an email and that even many Catholic NT scholars don't hold to perpetual virginity anymore.

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    You're not going to see explicit Biblical confirmation for everything, because the Scriptures were not written to be an exhaustive compendium covering everything.
    If we don't have biblical confirmation for something, why engage in it? Especially if we have everything we need for life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. We find this knowledge of the Lord via the Apostolic witness recorded in the scriptures, which are useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness.

    We do find support for such prayers in, e.g., James 5:16 and Rev. 5:8. Much of the church's beliefs about Mary come from the Protevangelion of James, usually dated to the 2nd century.
    I think you are performing eisegesis in relation to James 5:16 and Rev. 5:8. The bible consistently encourages us to pray for the living, to the living God, through the merits and intercession of Christ alone (Heb. 7:25).
    Last edited by Scrawly; 08-10-2018 at 04:29 AM.

  3. #13
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
    I have looked at the supposed Biblical support and I always find it lacking. For a widespread practice, I would think one would find more attestation in the Scriptures.
    The Orthodox liturgy, Catholic mass, and high church Protestant services are essentially identical in outline and extremely widespread. There is zero attestation in the Scriptures. Zero.
    I also know about Mary. John Meier told me the same in an email and that even many Catholic NT scholars don't hold to perpetual virginity anymore.
    Ok. Many Catholic scholars are quite liberal in their beliefs.
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    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrawly View Post
    If we don't have biblical confirmation for something, why engage in it?
    Let's see if you're consistent in this. Do you celebrate Christmas?
    Especially if we have everything we need for life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.
    Do we? Prove it.
    We find this knowledge of the Lord via the Apostolic witness recorded in the scriptures, which are useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness.
    You know that in context 2 Tim. 3:16 refers to the Old Testament, right? Was the NT accepted as canon when 2 Timothy was written?



    I think you are performing eisegesis in relation to James 5:16 and Rev. 5:8. The bible consistently encourages us to pray for the living, to the living God, through the merits and intercession of Christ alone (Heb. 7:25).[/QUOTE]
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

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    Department Head Apologiaphoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    The Orthodox liturgy, Catholic mass, and high church Protestant services are essentially identical in outline and extremely widespread. There is zero attestation in the Scriptures. Zero.
    Sure, but at the same time I have a bigger problem with practices like praying to the saints since it seems to kind of quasi-deify them. I have no problem with dead saints praying for us. I have a problem with trying to interact with them. I don't see any attestation for that in apostolic teaching. I don't think any Protestant is claiming that the method of a worship service goes back to the apostles or is part of the tradition.

    Ok. Many Catholic scholars are quite liberal in their beliefs.
    Sure, but I also find it interesting that I have a hard time thinking of Orthodox New Testament scholars. Asked Mike just in case to see if I was missing anyone. He couldn't think of one either.

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    tWebber NorrinRadd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Let's see if you're consistent in this. Do you celebrate Christmas?

    ...
    Define "celebrate."
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    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
    Sure, but at the same time I have a bigger problem with practices like praying to the saints since it seems to kind of quasi-deify them. I have no problem with dead saints praying for us. I have a problem with trying to interact with them. I don't see any attestation for that in apostolic teaching. I don't think any Protestant is claiming that the method of a worship service goes back to the apostles or is part of the tradition.
    You have no problem with dead saints praying for us, but have a problem with asking them to do so?

    I have no idea what point you're trying to make with your last sentence.
    Sure, but I also find it interesting that I have a hard time thinking of Orthodox New Testament scholars. Asked Mike just in case to see if I was missing anyone. He couldn't think of one either.
    (Western) scholarship is generally in English, German, French, or Spanish. Not a whole lot of Orthodox in those languages, as they're typically Western. Easterners have tended to be under Muslim or Communist rule, which makes scholarship difficult. Off-hand, I can think of Andrew Louth, John McGuckin, David Bentley Hart, Timothy Ware.... Significantly, two of the four are priests, and another is a bishop. Those who are Orthodox and want to study theology tend to become priests, not focus on an academic career in scholarship.
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  8. #18
    tWebber NorrinRadd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    You have no problem with dead saints praying for us, but have a problem with asking them to do so?
    Evangelicals tend to perceive that as akin to necromancy.



    I have no idea what point you're trying to make with your last sentence.
    It sounds to me like he's saying that Protestants generally do not see a direct and continuous line to the form of worship practiced in the NT -- at least the rather vague and incomplete pictures we get in the NT text itself -- and the forms practiced today.
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    Department Head Apologiaphoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    You have no problem with dead saints praying for us, but have a problem with asking them to do so?
    Yes. I have a problem with communicating with the dead.

    I have no idea what point you're trying to make with your last sentence.
    I don't think we claim that the way we worship goes back to the apostles. Claiming that praying to the saints is what the apostles taught is problematic to me since I can find no evidence that they did.

    (Western) scholarship is generally in English, German, French, or Spanish. Not a whole lot of Orthodox in those languages, as they're typically Western. Easterners have tended to be under Muslim or Communist rule, which makes scholarship difficult. Off-hand, I can think of Andrew Louth, John McGuckin, David Bentley Hart, Timothy Ware.... Significantly, two of the four are priests, and another is a bishop. Those who are Orthodox and want to study theology tend to become priests, not focus on an academic career in scholarship.
    But there are plenty over here, but yet they are not publishing apparently in New Testament scholarship.

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    The only biblical mention of attempting to communicate to the dead I can think of offhand is Saul trying to reach Samuel via the witch of Endor, and that was quite a negative mention.
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