Originally posted by seer
View Post
Announcement
Collapse
Civics 101 Guidelines
Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!
Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less
Advertising company forced (?) to remove Greg Laurie's billboards.
Collapse
X
-
Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
-
Originally posted by Sparko View PostI was restructuring my statement to fit Carp's, like he did to try to show there was a difference between the cake and the billboard. I don't think the baker was refusing the customer, but the message. I don't think the billboard was refusing the customer but the message.
I believe the billboard company has the right to refuse to print any message from any client at any time. Just like the baker. Nobody should be forced to create a message in support of something they don't want to.
You can practice on this one.
c4c206.jpg
Is this cake a message that same-sex marriage is acceptable? Would any baker be justified in refusing to provide this cake?Last edited by Roy; 08-14-2018, 09:32 AM.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
Comment
-
Originally posted by Roy View PostInterracial relationships are behaviour. Sexual preference is not behaviour.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
Comment
-
Originally posted by Roy View PostGood. All you have to do now is realise that many wedding cakes are not a message, not even a message that there is a wedding taking place.
You can practice on this one.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]29913[/ATTACH]
Is this cake a message that same-sex marriage is acceptable? Would any baker be justified in refusing to provide this cake?
That is not hard to understand. Especially for you liberals who keep telling us we are giving implicit approval to everything Trump does merely because we voted for him, right?
Comment
-
Originally posted by Sparko View Postright, which is why it is wrong to force someone to create a cake for you if they believe it is celebrating a sin. Or to force someone to print a billboard for you, or a Tshirt for you. or perform any labor you don't want to.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostTo me it is not a personal preference. It is objectively true. The way you argue for what you think is morally right, shows me that you believe it too, despite protestations to the contrary.
I, on the other hand, know my moral framework is subjective/relative. I have a vested interest in convincing others to follow the same moral framework because I perceive it to be the best possible moral framework. If I didn't, then whatever I perceived to be "the best" would be my moral framework, by definition. When I cannot convince someone through discussion and debate, then we resort to ignoring the differences (for minor issues), isolation/separation (for major issues where that approach will preserve my moral framework), or contention (for all of the rest of the issues). This is is subject to both isolation/separation and contention, and the latter is exercises in our courts. For now, SCOTUS has aligned with you concerning the baker, and me concerning same-sex marriage. With the tide of public opinion moving strongly towards acceptance, I expect it is a matter of time before everything shifts to legal acceptance, but that is likely a delayed event given the recent shifts in SCOTUS. We may even see some temporary retraction.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
-
Originally posted by Tassman View PostI’ve said numerous times in various threads that the Civil Rights Act was legislated under several different parts of the Constitution...not just the fourteenth amendment...notably its power to regulate interstate commerce under Article One (section 8), its duty to guarantee all citizens equal protection of the laws under the Fourteenth Amendment and its duty to protect voting rights under the Fifteenth Amendment.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Terraceth View PostSome other parts of it may have been legislated based on the Fourteenth Amendment. The portion about public accommodations was not.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
Comment
-
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAll moral positions are relative/subjective, Max. So we can either continually shrug at one another, or we can all listen a bit, see if someone else might "have something" that we missed.
Originally posted by carpedm9587But you are correct, if the choice is then the issue will be decided using something other than reason and discussion. It will default to isolation/separation and/or some form of force.
The thing is, you continually talk as if your moral views were objectively better than ones you disagree with - thus I find you very unconvincing as a moral relativist. You don't act as if your moral philosophy was actually true, which is evidence that it is not actually true....>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...
Comment
-
Originally posted by Roy View PostInterracial relationships are behaviour. Sexual preference is not behaviour.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
Comment
-
Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
The thing is, you continually talk as if your moral views were objectively better than ones you disagree with - thus I find you very unconvincing as a moral relativist. You don't act as if your moral philosophy was actually true, which is evidence that it is not actually true.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Sparko View PostIt depends on the wedding. The cake is a message, celebrating the union of two people in marriage. A cake for a gay wedding is celebrating a homosexual marriage which is a sin. As a Christian I would not participate or attend a gay wedding because to do so is to give implicit approval to that sin. I sure would not give them a wedding gift. The same goes for the baker. Him making a cake celebrating their marriage is implicitly him giving his approval of a sin, which he will not do.
That is not hard to understand.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
Comment
-
Originally posted by Roy View PostPerfectly clear. The issue is not with the nature of the cake, but with the nature of the customers, and portraying these refusals of service as being a result of the design or decoration of the cake is deliberate misrepresentation of the underlying reason, which is discrimination against homosexuals.
You admit that here it is the message and not the customer. That the billboard company was refusing to print a message but probably would print other billboards for Christians. It is the same situation with the baker.
Comment
-
Originally posted by MaxVel View PostWhy?
Originally posted by MaxVel View PostIt's not as if any particular moral position is any more valid or better than any other moral position.
Originally posted by MaxVel View PostWhy should someone change their moral positions?
Originally posted by MaxVel View PostThere can be no objective reason for doing so, since any position held by anyone, for whatever reason, is equally as true and right as any other position.
Originally posted by MaxVel View PostYeah, that's all you can have if your moral philosophy is true. Social ostracism or use of violence to force compliance.
Originally posted by MaxVel View PostThe thing is, you continually talk as if your moral views were objectively better than ones you disagree with - thus I find you very unconvincing as a moral relativist. You don't act as if your moral philosophy was actually true, which is evidence that it is not actually true.
This does not make morality "objective." It cannot be, because it is rooted in what we value and the relative ways we value. If I am confronting a person who values wealth above life, I have little hope of convincing them to adopt my moral view. To protect what I value (life), I will then seek to either isolate myself from the person, or join a society where that "valuing" is not accepted and seek to create protections in law.
There is nothing odd here, Max. And that does not make me a moral objectivist or absolutist (or "realist," as so many seem to like to call themselves).Last edited by carpedm9587; 08-15-2018, 10:03 AM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
-
Originally posted by Sparko View PostNot with the nature of the customers but the nature of the event.
You admit that here it is the message and not the customer. That the billboard company was refusing to print a message but probably would print other billboards for Christians. It is the same situation with the baker.
The billboard company would not produce a billboard with a particular appearance, but would produce billboards with other appearances. The difference is in what the billboard looks like. Change the billboard design and there is no issue.
The baker would not produce any wedding cake regardless of appearance. The difference is not in what the wedding cake looks like. Changing the wedding cake design cannot resolve the issue.
Different situations.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
Comment
-
Originally posted by Roy View PostBut not the nature of the cake.
You are equivocating on the word 'message', choosing in one instance to use it to describe a written or symbolic meaning, and on the other a willingness to endorse a viewpoint. They are not the same thing.
The billboard company would not produce a billboard with a particular appearance, but would produce billboards with other appearances. The difference is in what the billboard looks like. Change the billboard design and there is no issue.
The baker would not produce any wedding cake regardless of appearance. The difference is not in what the wedding cake looks like. Changing the wedding cake design cannot resolve the issue.
Different situations.
Comment
Related Threads
Collapse
Topics | Statistics | Last Post | ||
---|---|---|---|---|
Started by VonTastrophe, Today, 08:53 AM
|
0 responses
3 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by VonTastrophe
Today, 08:53 AM
|
||
Started by seer, Yesterday, 01:12 PM
|
15 responses
119 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by seer
Today, 07:59 AM
|
||
Started by rogue06, 04-17-2024, 09:33 AM
|
65 responses
425 views
1 like
|
Last Post
by tabibito
Today, 06:38 AM
|
||
Started by whag, 04-16-2024, 10:43 PM
|
65 responses
391 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by seanD
Yesterday, 05:11 PM
|
||
Started by rogue06, 04-16-2024, 09:38 AM
|
0 responses
27 views
1 like
|
Last Post
by rogue06
04-16-2024, 09:38 AM
|
Comment