Blue Waves and Red Waves

[carpedm9587]

He didn't stop with Carrier, he started with Carrier. He was working with companies from before his inauguration. That is why they used that time period. You can dispute the results or call it a PR Stunt if you want, but your initial objection was him using a time period that included before he took office. He is justified in doing so.

No, he's not. The VAST majority of job growth in those periods had nothing whatsoever to do with his PR stunts. As noted, even if he managed a "Carrier" per day every day of the week (which he didn't), he could have taken credit for less than 20% of the 172K (November) and 180K (December) and (259K) January job growth numbers. Heck, 25% of November was BEFORE he was elected. And it's especially bad since the the "Carrier" thing (and the majority of the others he claimed) either didn't actually happen, or were already planned and in the works long before Trump was elected. And you cannot claim that they only planned those things because they knew Trump was going to be president, because most people thought Clinton was going to be president, remember?

Seriously, Sparko, you can't really be defending such a horrendous "credit grab?" I know Trump likes to take credit for things other people did, but this is pretty ridiculous. It smacks of desperation.

[Sparko]

No, he's not. The VAST majority of job growth in those periods had nothing whatsoever to do with his PR stunts. As noted, even if he managed a "Carrier" per day every day of the week (which he didn't), he could have taken credit for less than 20% of the 172K (November) and 180K (December) and (259K) January job growth numbers. Heck, 25% of November was BEFORE he was elected. And it's especially bad since the the "Carrier" thing (and the majority of the others he claimed) either didn't actually happen, or were already planned and in the works long before Trump was elected. And you cannot claim that they only planned those things because they knew Trump was going to be president, because most people thought Clinton was going to be president, remember?

Seriously, Sparko, you can't really be defending such a horrendous "credit grab?" I know Trump likes to take credit for things other people did, but this is pretty ridiculous. It smacks of desperation.

You can believe what you want to, Carp. I will stick with what actually happened. Trump hit the ground running and created and saved jobs before he even took office.

[carpedm9587]

You can believe what you want to, Carp. I will stick with what actually happened. Trump hit the ground running and created and saved jobs before he even took office.

Actually, my friend, I AM talking about what actually happened. His "hitting the ground" was mostly (all?) PR. Much of it was taking credit for what was already underway (the CEOs said as much). Much of the rest never actually happened (e.g., Carrier). What remains was so small as to be essentially a non-factor. Except for one thing: it conned a lot of his "base" into believing he was actually doing something of substance - a "get your hands dirty" president. He wasn't. He was a PR hack and credit-grabber. It's his shtick.

But somehow, I doubt you're going to actually believe that, so I'll leave you to it.

[carpedm9587]

And another house district slides into the "toss up" column, making the current balance 199 districts leaning/likely/solid Democrat (7 of them currently held by a Republican), 193 districts leaning/likely/solid Republican (1 of the currently held by a Democrat), and 43 districts in "toss-up," 41 of them currently held by Republicans.

And Trump's approval/disapproval margin has slid back to -9.3 with only one of those polls since the surge of news on Tuesday. That one poll is Rasmussen, which is notorious for its right-wing slant. They are pretty regularly 5-10 points further to the right than most other polls, and putt his margins at -7. That suggests subsequent polls may shift it further negative, but I don't expect a lot of shift at this point. Trump's base is ready to give him a pass on pretty much everything, so they are not likely to abandon him at this point. There is also a solid "anti" base that is not likely to shift either. It's those in the middle that should be Trump's biggest concern.

[Mountain Man]

You can believe what you want to, Carp. I will stick with what actually happened. Trump hit the ground running and created and saved jobs before he even took office.

I wonder if the folks able to support their families because of Trump's negotiations with Carrier consider it a PR gimmick?

Seems like carpe is channeling "Crumbs" Pelosi.

[oxmixmudd]

You can believe what you want to, Carp. I will stick with what actually happened. Trump hit the ground running and created and saved jobs before he even took office.

So Trump's initial success with the economy justifies the rest?

Like forcing civil servants to lie about the general conditions in Central American countries and the Sudan so they can send people here under Temporary Protected Status back into a virtual hell?

This is not a about restricting the number of incoming aliens because we have too many. This is about sending vulnerable people back into hell and justifying the act by covering up how bad the conditions are in their countries of origin.

But hey, I have more money in my paycheck. Who cares about a bunch of poor people from other countries.

"Truly I tell you, if you have done it to the least of these, you have done it to me"

Who would have said such a silly thing ...



Jim

[Leonhard]

You can believe what you want to, Carp. I will stick with what actually happened. Trump hit the ground running and created and saved jobs before he even took office.

[Translated]

Sparko: *plugs fingers in ears* "Lalalala, I can't hear you!"

[One Bad Pig]

[Translated]

Sparko: *plugs fingers in ears* "Lalalala, I can't hear you!"

Yes, pretty good synopsis of Carp's response.

Well, pretty much anyone's response to anything potentially positive regarding Trump if that person's suffering from TDS. He's worse than Hitler! He's evil incarnate!

[Cow Poke]

Well, pretty much anyone's response to anything potentially positive regarding Trump if that person's suffering from TDS. He's worse than Hitler! He's evil incarnate!

It's about time you came around!

[Leonhard]

Yes, pretty good synopsis of Carp's response.

Honestly, have you read Sparko's response. CarpM gave good reasoning for the contrary, and he denied it, and refused to engage with it. Silence would have been better. Sparko's response just comes off as childish.

Well, pretty much anyone's response to anything potentially positive regarding Trump if that person's suffering from TDS. He's worse than Hitler! He's evil incarnate!

I don't see him as evil incarnate. I do see him as overly hyped by conservatives.

He's overhyped in his achievements. The whole jobs situation isn't clear cut at all to me, and Sparko's claim that Trump was creating jobs (hundreds of thousands of them) even before becoming president are a bit out there. Fox News and Breitbart seem to claim that the market's annual growth rate is at 4% or 6%, even though that's only if you cherry pick data from a single quarter. If you average it out across a year, the market growth rate is on average 2.5% under Trump, which is a slight improvement over the 2% market growth under Obama.

That's good. Its good that the US market is improving. I'm not sure I've said otherwise.

He seems to me like a Rorschach test that conservatives can project their hopes and aspirations onto. What they believe he's doing or he believes, tells me more about them than they do about Trump. There's very few positions that I know he holds that he's actually tried to follow through on: Build a wall (blocked by congress), repeal ACA (partially blocked by Congress), get conservative supreme court justices in (the one thing he's unambiguously done) and ignore climate change.

The rest is a shifting morass. He's both for single-payer Healthcare and he's against it.

[One Bad Pig]

Honestly, have you read Sparko's response. CarpM gave good reasoning for the contrary, and he denied it, and refused to engage with it. Silence would have been better. Sparko's response just comes off as childish.

Carpe gave excuses as to why gains couldn't be attributed to Trump. His economic positions were quite clear leading up to the election, and his win allowed those who had been waiting for the outcome to start implementing change immediately. That's going to happen with any election signifying a material change in economic policy.

[Leonhard]

Carpe gave excuses as to why gains couldn't be attributed to Trump. His economic positions were quite clear leading up to the election, and his win allowed those who had been waiting for the outcome to start implementing change immediately. That's going to happen with any election signifying a material change in economic policy.

The only way I can reasonably believe what you're saying is if Trump started in 2009 and all the job growth from then until now and be almost entirely attributed to him. Because from 2009 and until 2018 there's largely a slow linear decrease in unemployment.

[Sparko]

So Trump's initial success with the economy justifies the rest?

Like forcing civil servants to lie about the general conditions in Central American countries and the Sudan so they can send people here under Temporary Protected Status back into a virtual hell?

This is not a about restricting the number of incoming aliens because we have too many. This is about sending vulnerable people back into hell and justifying the act by covering up how bad the conditions are in their countries of origin.

But hey, I have more money in my paycheck. Who cares about a bunch of poor people from other countries.

"Truly I tell you, if you have done it to the least of these, you have done it to me"

Who would have said such a silly thing ...



Jim

Jim I like and respect you, but on this one topic it seems you have gone off the deep end. To preserve our friendship, I won't be discussing the topic of Trump with you any further. Please do not imply anything about my Christianity or my dedication to my Lord Jesus again.

[carpedm9587]

I wonder if the folks able to support their families because of Trump's negotiations with Carrier consider it a PR gimmick?

Seems like carpe is channeling "Crumbs" Pelosi.

At no point did I suggest that there was no human being who could credit their job to Trump's actions. That doesn't mean that his actions were not a PR stunt, and were not minuscule compared to the need. The math is simple. The economy needs 150K+ jobs per month to be considered in a healthy state (with respect to job growth). Carrier was 700-1000 jobs and actually did not pan out (as the article I linked noted). Using his cowboy "stick your nose into businesses" (so much for "free market"), he would have had to have had at LEAST 3 "Carriers" per day every day of the month to meet that number. He didn't even come close to a couple per week. Ergo, to put the job growth numbers from November to January into his column, instead of the sitting president's (as it has pretty much always been done) is disingenuous at the very least. I'm not sure what Pelosi had to do with any of this discussion.

[carpedm9587]

I wonder if the folks able to support their families because of Trump's negotiations with Carrier consider it a PR gimmick?

It's not clear to me how this in any way obviates the numbers I provided. A few people crediting Trump with their jobs does not make the general numbers, nor the deception involved by crediting Trump with 3 months of Job growth before he was even president, go away.