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  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    I think it is sad for all of us - but some of us just don't realize it. The man in our White House is now the head of the Republican party. His broad support in that party attests to this. It is not the party of Trump. As they say, a fish rots from its head. If the Republican party has truly dropped to the point where this is the best they can do, then the Republican party has fallen a long way from the days of Lincoln, Roosevelt, and Reagan. And if such a party can win two presidential elections in a row with such a man - then our country as a whole has been sadly diminished.
    I suspect you have a typo in there.

    I agree our country has been diminished - but let's not forget that the other major party put up a stinker of a candidate as well; can they do better next time?
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
    sigpic
    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
      how droll...It won't be any sadder for the country than 8 years of George W or 8 years of Obama...
      IMO, it is MUCH sadder. We have not seen a president like this, historically, since Jackson (who is, of course, Trump's hero). The damage being done to our institutions and our exchanges is profound, and I have to wonder if it will ever be undone. Trump has taken trolling mainstream - and made it an acceptable way for people to interact. He has made vengeance acceptable. He has undermined the very institutions we depend on to be watchdogs on our government, and selected a couple to be his propaganda machine.

      I did not agree with many of Bush's policies, but I never found him to be an immoral or vile man. I agreed with more of Obama's policies. I both disagree with many of Trump's policies, and find him an immoral and vile man - pretty much across the board.
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        My impression is you don't really understand the position of the left, either. You (and others here) have apparently bought into the drivel from the White House that the left somehow WANTS illegal immigration and DOESN'T want security. If the Dems are guilty of anything, it's not being clear about their message, and letting the "simple" (and wrong) message from the right dominate.

        After a while, I get weary of the lies...
        I'm not getting my pointers from the White House on this, carpe. I'm observing the actions of the Dems. Their message, as far as I understand it, is blanket amnesty to illegals, abolish ICE, and "open borders." If you can find me a contrary message, feel free to point it out. It's not as if the media in this country is dominated by the right.

        ETA: And you STILL haven't told me what YOUR position is. That might help clear things up, you know.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
          How is that disconcerting at all?
          Because it means 4 more years of this vile man - and it means the courts will skew badly to the right for probably the rest of my life. And it means I will be looking for a new home - which I really would rather not do.

          Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
          Or even relevant?
          Hopefully, it is not. A comparable poll done in late 2014 also had a line-up, and Trump wasn't even on the list. So who knows! Until the election is over - there is hope!

          Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
          It's not even a poll about whether they'd vote for or want Trump to win (such a poll would be so premature it'd be almost useless, but it'd at least be something), but whether they think he could win or not. That really doesn't mean anything at all in regards to his odds of winning.
          Very true. I find this man so repulsive, it may be I am over-reacting to even the suggestion that we will have him around for more than 4 years.
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
            That's how most conservatives felt for all of Obama's time as president.
            Interesting. I find myself wondering how anyone can even begin to compare the two situations. On the basis of policies - yes. On the basis of the core of the person - it is really no comparison.
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              And it means I will be looking for a new home - which I really would rather not do.
              Oh please! You aren't going anywhere...
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                Well the Democrats just lost another one of their wavelets...

                ‘I Stand for the Flag, I Kneel at the Cross’: PA Dem Forced to Resign After Facebook Posts Deemed Offensive

                A top Democrat in Pennsylvania said that he was forced to resign due to past Facebook posts that were deemed controversial.

                Mark Salvas told CBS 2 Pittsburgh that he was asked by the chair of the Allegheny County Democratic Party to resign, largely because of a photo from last year that showed him and his wife with the words "I stand for the flag, I kneel at the cross."

                Democrats in Allegheny County were reportedly offended by his patriotic post, as well as another by his wife that asked to support an officer charged in the fatal shooting of an African-American teen in June.

                "I’m not ashamed of my patriotism, not one bit," said Salvas, a Gulf War veteran. "I fought for this country. I think I have a right to have a voice and be patriotic."



                http://insider.foxnews.com/2018/10/1...facebook-posts
                There's another version of it here. If what is reported here is the entire story, then this dismissal was inappropriate, IMO.
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  They don't work on issues. They work on emotion.
                  I seem to remember someone suggesting that I use a narrower brush at one point. Goose.... Gander?
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    I seem to remember someone suggesting that I use a narrower brush at one point. Goose.... Gander?
                    They, to a large degree, work on emotion.

                    Happy?
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      I'm not getting my pointers from the White House on this, carpe. I'm observing the actions of the Dems. Their message, as far as I understand it, is blanket amnesty to illegals,
                      SOME people on the left (I am one of them) believe we need to give the illegals already here who have established roots (because we let them) a path to citizenship. We believe that for many rational reasons (cost, economy, justice, etc.). We also believe that we need to take a firmer stance of future illegal immigration - but also believe walls are not going to do the job (again, for some pretty rational reasons).

                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      abolish ICE,
                      SOME on the left have advocated for this - and it was quickly resisted by others on the left. We know we need an immigration force. We also need to make sure they are well supervised and acting humanely.

                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      and "open borders."
                      While there are SOME people who beieve in "open borders," it is (as best I can tell) a small fraction of the left. Most of us believe we do need to have borders - or we should abandon the idea of "countries" altogether.

                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      If you can find me a contrary message, feel free to point it out. It's not as if the media in this country is dominated by the right.
                      Nor is it "dominated by the left." The situation we have with the media today is unprecedented in my lifetime. While the MSM is certainly left of center, never has it served as the media outlet for a particular party or president. Stories are gone after because they get eyeballs. But today we have at least one media outlet that has become the propaganda machine of the administration, in a fairly tight symbiotic relationship. And a large swath of our country is listening to the propaganda, and swallowing it whole. It's actually a bit frightening.

                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      ETA: And you STILL haven't told me what YOUR position is. That might help clear things up, you know.
                      Some of it is reflected above. My position on immigration is that the existing problem of 11M illegal immigrants within our borders is a function of two things: the attraction of our country (wealth, jobs etc.) and the poor enforcement of our poorly structured immigration laws. As a consequence, we have let people stay for decades, develop deep roots, and become part of our economy and communities. If we are going to share responsibility for this reality, we are going to give these existing people (if they have no criminal involvement) a one-time, an arduous path to citizenship (more than the norm, reflecting their illegal status) so as to be minimally disruptive to our economy and communities.

                      Then we need to address illegal immigration going forward, and we need to take a zero tolerance stance - anyone found within the country that cannot prove they have been here since before today, and anyone who is criminally involved, needs to be deported. If they are discovered crossing the border, they need to be bused/escorted to a legal entry point and simply put in line (on the other side of the border) to wait their turn to apply for sanctuary/entry.

                      From a larger scale view, there is a simple reality at work here. When you have two countries in proximity, there will be an inevitable flow from the less desirable country to the more desirable country. The greater the disparity, the greater the flow. A wall on a fragment of the U.S. border is not going to solve this problem. The lower 48 has a border that is 8,878 miles long. It includes ocean, river, wood, desert, mountain, etc. It includes native reservations that traverse the borders at several places. Put a wall at one place and the tide will shift around the wall - or under the wall - or over the wall. People tunnel. People walk. People swim and boat. Even if you could build a wall that could not be climbed or tunneled under, the wall will end somewhere, unless you propose a wall around the entire U.S. People will find a way to go around. Black market businesses will arise to help these people. They will use drones or planes/parachutes or catapults/parachutes to go over. They will use boats to go around. They will perfect fake IDs to fly legal flights in. They will find a way.

                      There is one and only one way to stem the tide: the difference between the two countries must be minimized. The more parity there is between the two countries, the less desirable the trip will be. Then, even modest blocks will be adequate dissuade the vast majority. Right now this country is home to 1/3 of the world's wealth. So we wonder that people are trying hard to get in? If we want to control immigration, we should be investing in programs to help the countries around us, and throughout the world, to get their legs under them, and become developed countries with solid economies. And we might, while we are at it, take steps to undo some of the damage American policies and business practices have done to many of these countries.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        I suspect you have a typo in there.
                        I did - thanks!
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Oh please! You aren't going anywhere...
                          Actually - that research is already in progress. Yes - if Trump is re-elected in 2020, both my wife and I will pull the trigger on our retirement plan, which involves international travel. But we will be actively looking to repatriate to a different country. My wife loves Australia and we have friends there. I love the seasons and the north so would prefer Norway or Finland. The one thing my wife has asked about the timing is that we be around to support her parents until they pass. Given their health, I do not think that will be a long time.

                          I think you under-estimate the degree to which I despise Mr. Trump. If our country can elect that man twice to hold the highest office in the land, this is no longer the country I knew and I want nothing to do with it. America will have shown itself to be far too compromised for me to want to spend the rest of my life here.
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            They, to a large degree, work on emotion.

                            Happy?
                            Some of them work on emotion - to varying degrees. But then again, the same is true of those on the right. So I'm not seeing a lot of difference. These are emotional times, for all of us.
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                              Some of them work on emotion - to varying degrees. But then again, the same is true of those on the right. So I'm not seeing a lot of difference. These are emotional times, for all of us.
                              Why are you being so emotional?
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                Actually - that research is already in progress. Yes - if Trump is re-elected in 2020, both my wife and I will pull the trigger on our retirement plan, which involves international travel. But we will be actively looking to repatriate to a different country....
                                I have several cohorts who have repatriated to Belize, where their social security checks ALONE pay for their homestead, gardener, caretaker.... They're kinda building their own little community, and I'll be going down there in the Spring to check out possibilities. From there, yes - we would be into travel, using our Belize (or wherever) homestead as our base of operations.

                                Flights to and from Australia... um.. you cross the international dateline and that can really mess up your calendar!
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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