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  • UK Politics!

    Okay, anyone want to kindly discuss how the UK government functions? Is Parliament like Congress? I know there's two houses, but they are different than how the Senate and House of Representatives are like. And there is a Queen, but she doesn't do the governing now a days.
    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

  • #2
    What's the deal with the guy (used to watch Tony Blair do this) who stands at the podium and talks fast with a big book, then takes the big book down in his lap while other people yell, then pops up again with the big book and talks some more, and it seems like "whack-a-mole" without anybody whacking the mole?
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #3
      So perhaps the easiest way for Americans to think about it, is that the US House + Senate + President was loosely based on copying the UK's Parliament + House of Lords + King model with a few differences on how those members were appointed. Over the centuries in the UK, the parliament (their equivalent of the House) became by far the most powerful of the three branches and the other two are almost ceremonial positions at this point.

      The Parliament, which runs everything, is pretty much equivalent to the US House - members (Members of Parliament, MPs) are elected from districts, the party with the majority of seats forms the government (or a combination of parties that together have the majority), and the equivalent of the US Speaker of the House position is known as the Prime Minister (the UK has a position called "Speaker of the House" but their job is to manage decorum and discussion within the parliament, organizing who's turn it is to speak, etc.). The Prime Minister (PM) is regarded as the leader of the country. The PM can be changed at any time by the majority vote of MPs of the party forming the government. Theoretically there are 5 years between elections in the UK, but various things can trigger earlier elections.
      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
        So perhaps the easiest way for Americans to think about it, is that the US House + Senate + President was loosely based on copying the UK's Parliament + House of Lords + King model with a few differences on how those members were appointed. Over the centuries in the UK, the parliament (their equivalent of the House) became by far the most powerful of the three branches and the other two are almost ceremonial positions at this point.

        The Parliament, which runs everything, is pretty much equivalent to the US House - members (Members of Parliament, MPs) are elected from districts, the party with the majority of seats forms the government (or a combination of parties that together have the majority), and the equivalent of the US Speaker of the House position is known as the Prime Minister (the UK has a position called "Speaker of the House" but their job is to manage decorum and discussion within the parliament, organizing who's turn it is to speak, etc.). The Prime Minister (PM) is regarded as the leader of the country. The PM can be changed at any time by the majority vote of MPs of the party forming the government. Theoretically there are 5 years between elections in the UK, but various things can trigger earlier elections.
        Thanks

        I'll have more questions after a good night's sleep.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #5
          Just spotted a slight misuse of terms in my previous post, I consistently used the word "Parliament" to refer to the UK's House of Commons. While I believe this is a fairly common colloquial use of the term, it is technically incorrect, and is like referring to the US House as "Congress".

          US: "Congress" = House + Senate
          UK: "Parliament" = House of Commons + House of Lords.

          To reiterate, it is the "House of Commons" that holds nearly all the political power in the UK, and which I was calling "parliament" in the previous post.


          Perhaps another facet of UK (and NZ) politics that Americans would find interesting is that they have what is known as "parliamentary supremacy" rather than "judicial supremacy" like the US. i.e. the Supreme court doesn't overturn laws as unconstitutional, and the UK lacks any specific single document that is its official constitution.
          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

          Comment


          • #6
            Not a bad summary from Starlight.

            You have two houses in Parliament - the commons (elected MPs), and the Lords (unelected peers). Overseeing this you technically have the Queen, who the Prime Minister has to report to each week, but in practice she doesn't really do anything (sums up the Royal Family).

            The House of Commons is the 'most important' over the House of Lords, due to them being elected. When putting acts through parliament, bills get sent to the House of Lords to be ratified, and they can make amendments and sent back (called 'ping pong'), however it is unlikely that they'll actually block something. The idea being that the House of Lords is the one with the 'experts' on most given topics.

            The PM isn't directly elected - rather each party elects their own leader from their MPs. In general elections, you vote for the MP you want in your constituency, and due to the winner takes all First Past The Post system (FPTP) the MP with the most votes gets a seat in the Commons. The party with the most seats forms a majority, and become the ruling party for the next 5 years, with the next in line becoming the Opposition.

            Due to the FPTP system, most governments are formed by one party - either Labour or Conservative, much like in the USA. Though we have several parties, and though they may get an MP in parliament, they can't form a government as they do not tend to have the seats. For example, I live in Surrey, a very conservative area. Therefore, a conservative will always be elected, and my vote essentially counts for nothing. I imagine it is the same if you are a republican in a Dem state or vice versa.

            Currently, our PM is Teresa May. She became PM as our last Tory PM chose to have an unnecessary referendum due to fears of UKIP. He then lost the referendum, and stood down rather than deal with the mess he caused. After a lot of Tory back stabbing, Teresa May then became PM.

            She then decided that a 48/52 vote meant that the UK as a whole demanded the most harmful Hard Brexit possible, and called a General Election (after previously saying she wasn't going to do so), believing that the opposition was weak, and she could get more seats to force legislation through parliament. Both parties campaigned on carrying out the Brexit result, however the main opposition (Labour) did their best to campaign not on Brexit itself, but on an anti-austerity platform. The result of the election was that though the Tories remained in power, they lost their majority of seats and caused a hung parliament (not enough seats to form a majority & form a government). In desperation, the Tories gave £1.5billion to the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) of Northern Ireland in order to ensure a weak majority and form a Government **.

            Ever since the pro & anti EU sides of the Tories have been fighting amongst themselves, suggesting several proposals which would never be accepted by the EU (the have their cake & eat it suggestions) and essentially wasting the last 2 years. We are now in a situation where we could come to the end of the negotiating period stipulated by Article 50 (notification for a member state to leave the EU) and could crash out 'accidentally'.

            The promises by the Brexiteers in power have gone from sunshine & unicorns, to 'not being that bad', to 'surviving', to now having to potentially stockpile food & medicine.


            ** This is after saying during the general election and before that there 'is no magic money tree' to pay for public services and to ensure that public sector workers such as Nurses in the NHS receive pay to keep up with inflation. However, when they needed to find money from somewhere to remain in power, suddenly it was available.
            Last edited by EvoUK; 08-09-2018, 07:05 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by EvoUK View Post
              The promises by the Brexiteers in power have gone from sunshine & unicorns, to 'not being that bad', to 'surviving', to now having to potentially stockpile food & medicine.
              What will the next downgrade of expectations be to?



              ** This is after saying during the general election and before that there 'is no magic money tree' to pay for public services and to ensure that public sector workers such as Nurses in the NHS receive pay to keep up with inflation. However, when they needed to find money from somewhere to remain in power, suddenly it was available.
              It's funny how magic money trees work for right wing parties. There's never any money available for public goods, but if they want something themselves that magic money tree is conveniently fruiting. It's almost like they're full of it.

              Relevant US political quote from today:
              "We only have empty pockets when it comes to the morally right things to do, but when it comes to tax cuts for billionaires and when it comes to unlimited war we seem to be able to invent that money very easily," - Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, criticizing US Republican policy

              Given governments control their own income by setting tax rates, the "we can't afford it" argument is almost always ridiculous. What is always meant is we choose not to do it. Looking at OECD tax statistics the UK easily has scope to increase its taxation by 50%, if it wanted to, and match Denmark / Sweden / France kind of taxation revenues, and it could spend that money on tripling the NHS budget, if it wanted to.
              Last edited by Starlight; 08-09-2018, 07:31 AM.
              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                What's the deal with the guy (used to watch Tony Blair do this) who stands at the podium and talks fast with a big book, then takes the big book down in his lap while other people yell, then pops up again with the big book and talks some more, and it seems like "whack-a-mole" without anybody whacking the mole?
                That would be Prime Ministers Questions. The idea being that the House of Commons gets to ask questions of the Government once a week on the topics of the day, so they get to defend & justify their policy decisions/answer to any of the latest scandals. The big red book is essentially their notes, as they'll be expected to know the numbers & figures of any topic (though they'll obviously have some idea of the likely topics to be raised that week, based on the news of the day).

                The House of Commons is well known for its unruly behaviour, hence the shouting and the reason for the position of Speaker, who has the job of trying to keep some form of order.

                PMQs are now infamous for nothing really happening, as our current PM is a robot who spouts meaningless platitudes without answering any questions, and the Leader of the Opposition is really bad at the job of opposing and holding the government to account.
                Last edited by EvoUK; 08-09-2018, 07:56 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  On PMQs, below is an opinion piece (note, they're clearly anti-Tory, but it is a fun read none the less) on an average session.

                  Also note, this is a few weeks old, prior to the Chequers meeting of the cabinet where they agreed a stance on Brexit, for it to basically last the weekend before both the Foreign Secretary & the Brexit Secretary resigned in a huff and the whole lot was rolled back by the anti-EU minority of her party.

                  Originally posted by Article
                  Another PMQs brings the end of days closer for Theresa May

                  We are reaching the end of days. Theresa May’s authority diminishes by the day. Her cabinet is barely speaking to one another and body bags have been ordered in for Friday’s Chequers mini-break. Esther McVey has been accused of deliberately misleading parliament about Universal Credit by the National Audit Office. Vote Leave has been accused of breaking the electoral rules on campaign spending. And Jeremy Corbyn is asking questions about buses. Six of them. You wait for one question about buses…

                  Not that there is anything intrinsically wrong with using prime minister’s questions to wrong-foot May over buses. A large number of people depend on public transport to get around and bus services have become increasingly unreliable in many areas. Maybe, though, just one or two questions would have been enough. Then move on to trains, if you like. Chris Grayling’s job is hanging by a thread over his mishandling of the railways. But once you’ve done all that, just don’t forget to mention the war.

                  As a general rule of thumb, a leader of the opposition is best off asking the questions a prime minister least wants to answer. And May is very happy not answering questions about buses. She doesn’t know anything about buses and she doesn’t care about buses because none of her MPs are giving her a hard time about buses. Tory voters, by and large, travel by car.

                  The first question about buses received an answer about the NHS. May was only trying to be helpful. She didn’t have anything to say about buses but she knew she had to say something and she hoped the NHS would do. It wouldn’t. Corbyn pressed her again. The prime minister shrugged. She hadn’t a clue about local bus services in Cornwall. Were they the ones with £350m pasted on the side?

                  Corbyn then went for a quick-fire round. The number 38 service in Greater Manchester. How many buses an hour? Pass. How many people had died because they couldn’t get to hospital? Pass. By the end, May looked positively cheerful. She’d come to PMQs expecting to be given a hard time. Public services falling apart were a breeze compared to the government falling apart.

                  It took Owen Paterson, one of the hardline Brexiters in her own party, to ask the question she really didn’t want to answer. Would she sack any member of her cabinet who dared to propose a soft Brexit, and could she commit to keeping her election promise of bankrupting the country by leaving the single market and the customs union?

                  May looked temporarily panicked and closed her eyes in fright. Hoping that when she reopened them, Paterson would have disappeared. But then she remembered there was no promise she had ever made that she hadn’t subsequently broken. So she might as well make another promise that she would break and tell him exactly what he wanted to hear. Maybot is as Maybot does. We’d definitely be leaving the single market and the customs union apart from the bits of them we might be staying in.
                  Article here, by John Crace of the Guardian

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by EvoUK View Post
                    Not a bad summary from Starlight.

                    You have two houses in Parliament - the commons (elected MPs), and the Lords (unelected peers).
                    A) Where do the Lords come from, or how do they attain their position?
                    2) How bout summing up each party.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by EvoUK View Post
                      That would be Prime Ministers Questions. The idea being that the House of Commons gets to ask questions of the Government once a week on the topics of the day, so they get to defend & justify their policy decisions/answer to any of the latest scandals. The big red book is essentially their notes, as they'll be expected to know the numbers & figures of any topic (though they'll obviously have some idea of the likely topics to be raised that week, based on the news of the day).

                      The House of Commons is well known for its unruly behaviour, hence the shouting and the reason for the position of Speaker, who has the job of trying to keep some form of order.

                      PMQs are now infamous for nothing really happening, as our current PM is a robot who spouts meaningless platitudes without answering any questions, and the Leader of the Opposition is really bad at the job of opposing and holding the government to account.
                      Thanks - that pretty well describes what I watched - it just seemed all a bit .. animated. I haven't watched it since Tony, so I guess it's been a while.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        Thanks - that pretty well describes what I watched - it just seemed all a bit .. animated. I haven't watched it since Tony, so I guess it's been a while.
                        It's not so much fun any more

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          A) Where do the Lords come from, or how do they attain their position?
                          2) How bout summing up each party.
                          Lord positions are mostly appointed by the government of the day, in practice being a 'reward' for work done (you can see how this could be-and is- commonly abused). These are the Lord's Temporal.

                          Some (90) are hereditary- they hold titles which are inhereted and decide amongst themselves who gets to join.

                          There's also 26 bishops in the House of Lords, representing the Lord's Spiritual.

                          The upper number in the House of Lords isn't fixed, and currently is 793.

                          It's job is to scrutinise bills approved by the House of Commons prior to coming into force, and though it cannot block bills, it can delay and force the Commons to reconsider & amend their decisions. It works as a check on the Commons that is independent of the electoral process.


                          As for summing up each party, that'll take a bit longer. Both Labour & Conservative by stint of being the largest parties are broad churches, and thus is hard to sum up what they stand for in a concise & fair manner.

                          The smaller main parties are a little easier as many of them are essentially single-issue parties whose job it is to try to push governments to pass bills in their favour- environmentally friendly laws for the Greens, the EU Referendum for UKIP etc.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            My opinion on the House of Lords is split. I am against them as they're an unelected body, yet since 2016 they've been the only voice of reason in parliament, especially with regards to the fairly recent Brexit Bills.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by EvoUK View Post
                              Lord positions are mostly appointed by the government of the day, in practice being a 'reward' for work done (you can see how this could be-and is- commonly abused). These are the Lord's Temporal.

                              Some (90) are hereditary- they hold titles which are inhereted and decide amongst themselves who gets to join.

                              There's also 26 bishops in the House of Lords, representing the Lord's Spiritual.

                              The upper number in the House of Lords isn't fixed, and currently is 793.

                              It's job is to scrutinise bills approved by the House of Commons prior to coming into force, and though it cannot block bills, it can delay and force the Commons to reconsider & amend their decisions. It works as a check on the Commons that is independent of the electoral process.


                              As for summing up each party, that'll take a bit longer. Both Labour & Conservative by stint of being the largest parties are broad churches, and thus is hard to sum up what they stand for in a concise & fair manner.

                              The smaller main parties are a little easier as many of them are essentially single-issue parties whose job it is to try to push governments to pass bills in their favour- environmentally friendly laws for the Greens, the EU Referendum for UKIP etc.
                              Interesting. I appreciate your responses.

                              Do the Lords get paid? In Texas, there are political positions that pay very little during their time of service, but they have retirement plans that are outrageous. A Texas Senator makes $600 a month, but if he/she completes one term, can retire on a pension of $125,000 a year (based on the current pay of a state district judge, whose salary is set by the legislature)
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment

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