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Book Plunge: Roman Catholicism. Evangelical Protestants Analyze What Divides and Unit

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  • Book Plunge: Roman Catholicism. Evangelical Protestants Analyze What Divides and Unit

    How wide the divide?

    Link.

    -----

    What do I think of this multi-authored work published by Moody Press? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    Our story can begin from very different perspectives. We can look at Pope Boniface VIII who told us that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that the saved must be in submission to the Roman Pontiff. Later on, the Westminster Confession refers to the Pope with such great compliments as calling him the antichrist, Man of Sin, and Son of Perdition.

    Can't we all just get along?

    Over time, we have indeed got along better. Still, we can wonder how this relationship works. How serious are our differences? Are the differences between a Protestant and a Catholic on the same level as those of a Methodist and a Baptist?

    In this work, many evangelical Protestants state their opinion. Sometimes it can seem hard to get an overall idea. One side can seem to say we need to strive for unity. Another gets the impression that our differences are too radical and based on differences of the Gospel itself.

    Many chapters deal with many different perspectives. I naturally found the chapters on history and such to be the most interesting. The chapter detailing conversions to Catholicism by people like Tom Howard and Scott Hahn were quite interesting. Sometimes, seeing people who I think should know better be concerned about supposed cracks in Protestantism, I just had to wonder. These seemed like pretty simple objections to me. It's possible I'm missing something, but it's also possible I'm not.

    William Webster's was the chapter I found the most appealing of all. This one involved a look at the doctrines historically, including how many of the church fathers interpreted a key passage like Matthew 16:18. Webster's critique is one I think a Catholic should want to answer.

    The question of unity is regularly raised. On the one hand, we want to be unified because there are opponents on the gate that want to get rid of both of us. On the other hand, shouldn't a unity be built on truth? What if there are differences in how we see the Gospel? Do we brush those aside? Do both sides though want to return to a state where the other is the side of the devil?

    There's also concern over an increasing liberalism in Catholicism today, such that many other religions can be seen as being under salvation, and of course differences between the Council of Trent and Vatican II. While I have not heavily invested myself into these issues, they are quite concerning. I do know also that Pope Francis has been making a lot of waves.

    So where do I stand from here? How about aiming for better-natured disagreements? I still cherish my Roman Catholic friends. I have no doubt many Roman Catholics are brothers and sisters in Christ. I also don't doubt that many are lost. The same I say about Baptists and Lutherans and Presbyterians and other denominations. I know many Catholics who I am convinced love Jesus more than I do and Thomas Aquinas is my favorite thinker outside the Bible.

    But I do have things to think about. Can I discuss these with my Catholic friends? Absolutely. My main hope is that if we disagree, we will still part as that. Friends.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters

  • #2
    This sticks in my mind:

    Your standard Collage Dictionary: Holy Father n, One of the titles of the pope.

    John 17:11,
    And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.


    ". . . But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. . . ." -- Matthew 23:8-11.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      This sticks in my mind:

      Your standard Collage Dictionary: Holy Father n, One of the titles of the pope.

      John 17:11,
      And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.


      ". . . But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. . . ." -- Matthew 23:8-11.
      I think any reading that isn't put into context of Jesus talking specifically about the hypocricy, pride and vanity of the Pharisees is misguided. And any reading that tries to extract a general rule is defeated by pure common sense.

      A son shouldn't call his father, father?

      Didn't St. Joseph refer to himself as father, with God's full approval? "So it was not you who sent me here, but God; and he has made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house and ruler over all the land of Egypt" (Gen. 45:8).

      And what about St. Job whom God referred to as without fault "I was a father to the poor, and I searched out the cause of him whom I did not know" (Job 29:16)

      What about St. Eliakim, St. David's servant, whom God Himself calls a father "In that day I will call my servant Eliakim, the son of Hilkiah . . . and I will clothe him with [a] robe, and will bind [a] girdle on him, and will commit . . . authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah" (Is. 22:20–21)

      St. Elisha cried out to St. Elias who was carried up to Heaven "My father, my father!" (2 Kgs. 2:12)

      It should be noted that Elisha wasn't Elias's son, only in a spiritual sense.

      So what is going on here. Did Jesus change the law? He was certainly in His right to do so, like he did with divorce, making a more permissive rule, less permissive, not permitting anyone to remarry again. However I don't think it happened, because we already see St. Stephen say "our father Abraham," Acts 7:2 and St. Paul says "our father Isaac." Romans 9:10.

      So I don't think what Christ is saying here can consistently be read as a condemnation of titles or hierarchies. The Apostles themselves quickly set up those, set up some to be teachers, some to be presbyteri, some to be etc... Again St. Paul calls himself just that "For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle . . . a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth" (1 Tim. 2:7) and "For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher" (2 Tim. 1:11). St. Paul also referred to others this way "God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers" (1 Cor. 12:28), "his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers" (Eph. 4:11)

      Comment


      • #4
        Being a spiritual father and taking the title are two different things. see 1 John 2:13-14, where John refers to spiritual fathers among believers.
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post

          So I don't think what Christ is saying here can consistently be read as a condemnation of titles or hierarchies.
          What do you think it does mean, then?
          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

          Comment


          • #6
            I think 1 Cor. 4:15 and Phil. 2:22 are more relevant for how people of the New Covenant should view the "father" thing.

            Personally, I'm much more offended by the notion of "THE Vicar of Christ" -- as though each and every Christian is not a vicar of Christ.
            Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

            Beige Federalist.

            Nationalist Christian.

            "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

            Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

            Proud member of the this space left blank community.

            Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

            Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

            Justice for Matthew Perna!

            Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
              I think 1 Cor. 4:15 and Phil. 2:22 are more relevant for how people of the New Covenant should view the "father" thing.

              Personally, I'm much more offended by the notion of "THE Vicar of Christ" -- as though each and every Christian is not a vicar of Christ.
              As I know it all bishops can be called vicars of Christ, St. Ignatius of Antioch (a likely disciple of St. John the Evangelist) uses it like that.

              Source: St. Ignatius of Antioch - Epistle to the Magnesians

              Since therefore I have, in the persons before mentioned, beheld the whole multitude of you in faith and love, I exhort you to study to do all things with a divine harmony, while your bishop presides in the place of God, and your presbyters in the place of the assembly of the apostles, along with your deacons, who are most dear to me, and are entrusted with the ministry of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end was revealed.

              © Copyright Original Source

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                What do you think it does mean, then?
                A sharp criticism of the vain-glory, vanity and pride of the pharisees who enjoys to sit at the high places, and enjoy their position of power. Christians are not to seek superiority over one another. Anyone who wants to be a leader in the Church, must be a servant, yet Christ is not against leaders. He appoints St. Peter as head of the Apostles, and He appoints the apostles as leaders over various churches.

                Try reading the Church Fathers on this passage, I find it very illuminating.

                To help, St. Thomas Aquinas gathered together a collection of quotes from sermons of the Church Fathers for all passages in the gospels. Just scroll down a bit.

                https://www.ecatholic2000.com/catena/untitled-30.shtml

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                  As I know it all bishops can be called vicars of Christ, St. Ignatius of Antioch (a likely disciple of St. John the Evangelist) uses it like that.

                  Source: St. Ignatius of Antioch - Epistle to the Magnesians

                  Since therefore I have, in the persons before mentioned, beheld the whole multitude of you in faith and love, I exhort you to study to do all things with a divine harmony, while your bishop presides in the place of God, and your presbyters in the place of the assembly of the apostles, along with your deacons, who are most dear to me, and are entrusted with the ministry of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end was revealed.

                  © Copyright Original Source

                  St. Cyprian of Carthage would agree:
                  Source: John Meyendorff

                  It is the doctrine of Cyprian of Carthage, who had singled out Peter as the model of the episcopal ministry, which probably helped create the notion that the bishop of Rome derives not only his episcopacy, but his primal authority as well, from Peter alone, exclusively. In fact, however, Cyprain's view of Peter's 'chair' (cathedri Petri) was that it belonged not only to the bishop of Rome but to every bishop within each community. Thus Cyprian used not the argument of Roman primacy but that of his own authority as 'successor of Peter' in Carthage. - Imperial Unity and Christian Divisions p. 61

                  For Cyprian, the ‘chair of Peter’, was a sacramental concept, necessarily present in each local church: Peter was the example and model of each local bishop, who, within his community, presides over the Eucharist and possesses ‘the power of the keys’ to remit sins. And since the model is unique, unique also is the episcopate (episcopatus unus est) shared, in equal fullness (in solidum) by all bishops. - Id., p. 152

                  © Copyright Original Source



                  See also St. Augustine on St. Cyprian:
                  Source: Against the Donatists 3.5

                  "For no one of us," he says, "sets himself up as a bishop of bishops, or by tyrannical terror forces his colleagues to a necessity of obeying." What could be more kind? What more humble? Surely there is here no authority restraining us from inquiry into what is truth. "Inasmuch as every bishop," he says, "in the free use of his liberty and power, has the right of forming his own judgment, and can no more be judged by another than he can himself judge another,"— that is, I suppose, in those questions which have not yet been brought to perfect clearness of solution; for he knew what a deep question about the sacrament was then occupying the whole Church with every kind of disputation, and gave free liberty of inquiry to every man, that the truth might be made known by investigation. For he was surely not uttering what was false, and trying to catch his simpler colleagues in their speech, so that, when they should have betrayed that they held opinions at variance with his, he might then propose, in violation of his promise, that they should be excommunicated. Far be it from a soul so holy to entertain such accursed treachery; indeed, they who hold such a view about such a man, thinking that it conduces to his praise, do but show that it would be in accordance with their own nature. I for my part will in no wise believe that Cyprian, a Catholic bishop, a Catholic martyr, whose greatness only made him proportionately humble in all things, so as to find favor before the Lord, Sirach 3:18 should ever, especially in the sacred Council of his colleagues, have uttered with his mouth what was not echoed in his heart, especially as he further adds, "But we must all await the judgment of our Lord Jesus Christ, who alone has the power both of setting us in the government of His Church, and of judging of our acts therein." When, then, he called to their remembrance so solemn a judgment, hoping to hear the truth from his colleagues, would he first set them the example of lying? May God avert such madness from every Christian man, and how much more from Cyprian! We have therefore the free liberty of inquiry granted to us by the most moderate and most truthful speech of Cyprian.

                  © Copyright Original Source

                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                    As I know it all bishops can be called vicars of Christ, St. Ignatius of Antioch (a likely disciple of St. John the Evangelist) uses it like that.

                    Source: St. Ignatius of Antioch - Epistle to the Magnesians

                    Since therefore I have, in the persons before mentioned, beheld the whole multitude of you in faith and love, I exhort you to study to do all things with a divine harmony, while your bishop presides in the place of God, and your presbyters in the place of the assembly of the apostles, along with your deacons, who are most dear to me, and are entrusted with the ministry of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end was revealed.

                    © Copyright Original Source

                    That's better, but only slightly.

                    This is quickly going to get into the fact that the NT knows nothing of any sacerdotal priesthood, so...
                    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                    Beige Federalist.

                    Nationalist Christian.

                    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                    Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                    Justice for Matthew Perna!

                    Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                      That's better, but only slightly.

                      This is quickly going to get into the fact that the NT knows nothing of any sacerdotal priesthood, so...
                      You must have a smaller NT than I do. Mine refers to such things as Jesus giving the apostles (and, by extension, their successors) the sacerdotal power to forgive sins, the apostles appointing presbyteroi and episcopoi via the laying on of hands....
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        St. Cyprian of Carthage would agree:

                        See also St. Augustine on St. Cyprian:
                        Neat quotes, thanks. I've only waded into the patristic ankle deep.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          For those of us who know God, Christ said He would have the Father send the Holy Spirit in His place for us (John 14:15-20; 16:7-16).
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            For those of us who know God, Christ said He would have the Father send the Holy Spirit in His place for us (John 14:15-20; 16:7-16).
                            Good example of what unites.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                              You must have a smaller NT than I do. Mine refers to such things as Jesus giving the apostles (and, by extension, their successors) the sacerdotal power to forgive sins, the apostles appointing presbyteroi and episcopoi via the laying on of hands....
                              Most Evangelicals see it so differently that it virtually amounts to a different NT.

                              We see that the power to remit or retain sins was part of the Great Commission given to all believers, not just apostles and their successors.

                              We understand elders/shepherds/supervisors to be leaders, but not specially set apart as mediators or performers of rituals. In our understanding, the only hieratuma priesthood is the one common to all believers. The days of having an additional, ceremonial priesthood *within* the kingdom of priests passed away with the Obsolete Covenant.
                              Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                              Beige Federalist.

                              Nationalist Christian.

                              "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                              Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                              Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                              Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                              Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                              Justice for Matthew Perna!

                              Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                              Comment

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