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Book Plunge: Roman Catholicism. Evangelical Protestants Analyze What Divides and Unit

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  • #16
    Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    We see that the power to remit or retain sins was part of the Great Commission given to all believers, not just apostles and their successors.
    I suspect many Evangelicals would disagree with you on that. Having spent the first 3.5 decades of my life as an Evangelical, in a number of different denominations, having for the most part attended services at least weekly, I've never heard anyone espouse this belief.
    We understand elders/shepherds/supervisors to be leaders, but not specially set apart as mediators or performers of rituals.
    For the most part, yes. Even among Evangelicals it is typically the pastor who baptizes people and leads communion.
    In our understanding, the only hieratuma priesthood is the one common to all believers. The days of having an additional, ceremonial priesthood *within* the kingdom of priests passed away with the Obsolete Covenant.
    Yet even among Protestants this was a distinctly minority position until fairly recently.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
    sigpic
    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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    • #17
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      I suspect many Evangelicals would disagree with you on that. Having spent the first 3.5 decades of my life as an Evangelical, in a number of different denominations, having for the most part attended services at least weekly, I've never heard anyone espouse this belief.
      Sorry, even though I'm aware of the fact that we have very different presuppositions that affect what we see when we look at Scripture, I'm not always able to anticipate them and take them into account.

      This note from the NET Bible seems to capture it pretty well:

      The statement by Jesus about forgive or retaining anyone’s sins finds its closest parallel in Matt 16:19 and 18:18. This is probably not referring to apostolic power to forgive or retain the sins of individuals (as it is sometimes understood), but to the “power” of proclaiming this forgiveness which was entrusted to the disciples. This is consistent with the idea that the disciples are to carry on the ministry of Jesus after he has departed from the world and returned to the Father, a theme which occurred in the Farewell Discourse (cf. 15:27, 16:1-4, and 17:18).

      It appears the authors distinguish between "apostles" and "disciples," the latter term referring to all followers of Jesus.

      The notes in the NIV Study Bible are less detailed, but likewise suggest the authority to forgive or retain sins refers to the proclaiming of the Gospel, and belongs to all believers.

      I.Howard Marshall (Methodist) seems to present a similar view on p. 199 of his Concise New Testament Theology, in that he references "Jesus and His followers," with no mention of "apostles."

      On p. 134 of the third volume of his Renewal Theology, the late J. Rodman Williams (Presbyterian) explicitly extends all four Gospel versions of the Great Commission to all followers of Jesus, the apostles being only the first exemplars.

      In John's Wisdom: A Commentary on the Fourth Gospel, Witherington (Methodist) concurs that the verse refers to the preaching of the Gospel, and the consequences of accepting or rejecting it. He seems to be suggesting it applies to all believers, not just those of the "preaching" class, but is not quite explicitly clear.

      Here are (Baptist) Keener's notes from the IVP Bible Background Commentary:
      20:21. In Jewish tradition prophets often appointed their successors. Judaism sometimes conceived of prophets as God’s agents; the sender authorized agents with his authority to the extent that they accurately represented him.
      20:22. Jesus’ breathing on them recalls Genesis 2:7, when God breathed into Adam the breath of life (it might also be relevant that later Jewish tradition sometimes connected this passage with Ezek 37, when God’s Spirit or wind revives the dead). Jewish literature especially connected the Holy Spirit with the power to prophesy, or speak for God.
      20:23. Acting as God’s agents (20:21) the disciples could pronounce the divine prerogative on his authority (i.e., pronouncing it when he would do so).

      In his commentary on John's Gospel, he is more detailed and explicit, and clearly portrays the Promise/Commission as applying to all believers.

      So, stipulating that Catholics and Protestants differ on the *meaning* of 20:23, I think it is obvious that the idea that it applies to all believers is not some obscure notion.

      For the most part, yes. Even among Evangelicals it is typically the pastor who baptizes people and leads communion.
      True. And IMO, somewhat unfortunate. I see the NT featuring much more "corporate" ministry, as opposed to the common "pastor-centric" version.

      Yet even among Protestants this was a distinctly minority position until fairly recently.
      I guess I forget how much I've been influenced by things like Gordon Fee's "Laos and Leadership Under the New Covenant"
      Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

      Beige Federalist.

      Nationalist Christian.

      "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

      Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

      Proud member of the this space left blank community.

      Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

      Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

      Justice for Matthew Perna!

      Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
        Sorry, even though I'm aware of the fact that we have very different presuppositions that affect what we see when we look at Scripture, I'm not always able to anticipate them and take them into account.

        This note from the NET Bible seems to capture it pretty well:

        The statement by Jesus about forgive or retaining anyone’s sins finds its closest parallel in Matt 16:19 and 18:18. This is probably not referring to apostolic power to forgive or retain the sins of individuals (as it is sometimes understood), but to the “power” of proclaiming this forgiveness which was entrusted to the disciples. This is consistent with the idea that the disciples are to carry on the ministry of Jesus after he has departed from the world and returned to the Father, a theme which occurred in the Farewell Discourse (cf. 15:27, 16:1-4, and 17:18).

        It appears the authors distinguish between "apostles" and "disciples," the latter term referring to all followers of Jesus.

        The notes in the NIV Study Bible are less detailed, but likewise suggest the authority to forgive or retain sins refers to the proclaiming of the Gospel, and belongs to all believers.

        I.Howard Marshall (Methodist) seems to present a similar view on p. 199 of his Concise New Testament Theology, in that he references "Jesus and His followers," with no mention of "apostles."

        On p. 134 of the third volume of his Renewal Theology, the late J. Rodman Williams (Presbyterian) explicitly extends all four Gospel versions of the Great Commission to all followers of Jesus, the apostles being only the first exemplars.

        In John's Wisdom: A Commentary on the Fourth Gospel, Witherington (Methodist) concurs that the verse refers to the preaching of the Gospel, and the consequences of accepting or rejecting it. He seems to be suggesting it applies to all believers, not just those of the "preaching" class, but is not quite explicitly clear.

        Here are (Baptist) Keener's notes from the IVP Bible Background Commentary:
        20:21. In Jewish tradition prophets often appointed their successors. Judaism sometimes conceived of prophets as God’s agents; the sender authorized agents with his authority to the extent that they accurately represented him.
        20:22. Jesus’ breathing on them recalls Genesis 2:7, when God breathed into Adam the breath of life (it might also be relevant that later Jewish tradition sometimes connected this passage with Ezek 37, when God’s Spirit or wind revives the dead). Jewish literature especially connected the Holy Spirit with the power to prophesy, or speak for God.
        20:23. Acting as God’s agents (20:21) the disciples could pronounce the divine prerogative on his authority (i.e., pronouncing it when he would do so).

        In his commentary on John's Gospel, he is more detailed and explicit, and clearly portrays the Promise/Commission as applying to all believers.

        So, stipulating that Catholics and Protestants differ on the *meaning* of 20:23, I think it is obvious that the idea that it applies to all believers is not some obscure notion.
        Well, I agree that the Great Commission generally applies to all disciples, the idea that the GC is the subject of forgiving and retaining sins strikes me as rather forced. I understand that those who reject the idea of confession have to somehow interpret the passage differently, but it's a stretch to say the least; one must wholly deny the plain sense in order to countenance it.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          Well, I agree that the Great Commission generally applies to all disciples, the idea that the GC is the subject of forgiving and retaining sins strikes me as rather forced. I understand that those who reject the idea of confession have to somehow interpret the passage differently, but it's a stretch to say the least; one must wholly deny the plain sense in order to countenance it.
          In that case, the literal ability to forgive or retain sins must belong to each believer.

          Verse 23 clearly is linked to v. 22. In the context of John's Gospel (and the allusions to Gen. 2 and Eze. 37), this clearly represents impartation of life. Certainly it was not only the Apostles and their later designated successors who have life! Since necessarily all believers receive the life-giving Spirit, then whatever v. 23 means, it belongs to all of us.
          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

          Beige Federalist.

          Nationalist Christian.

          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

          Proud member of the this space left blank community.

          Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

          Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

          Justice for Matthew Perna!

          Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
            In that case, the literal ability to forgive or retain sins must belong to each believer.

            Verse 23 clearly is linked to v. 22. In the context of John's Gospel (and the allusions to Gen. 2 and Eze. 37), this clearly represents impartation of life. Certainly it was not only the Apostles and their later designated successors who have life! Since necessarily all believers receive the life-giving Spirit, then whatever v. 23 means, it belongs to all of us.
            I'm not so sure your analysis passes muster; Jesus was imparting the Holy Spirit in some sense, not life. It cannot be identical to the reception of the Holy Spirit by all believers, or Pentecost wouldn't mean anything; this appears to have been something just given to the leadership.

            Secondly, it doesn't make sense that forgiving and retaining sins belongs to each believer, because that would flatly contradict the injuction in the Lord's Prayer to forgive others their trespasses. What makes sense is it being a reference to the keys given to Peter and the concomitant ability to bind and loose (Mt. 18:18).
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

            Comment


            • #21
              Something to note: The command to forgive in order to be forgiven is a matter of the Law not grace.
              [Matthew 5:19; Leviticus 19:18; Galatians 2:21; Ephesians 4:32]
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                Something to note: The command to forgive in order to be forgiven is a matter of the Law not grace.
                [Matthew 5:19; Leviticus 19:18; Galatians 2:21; Ephesians 4:32]
                False dichotomy.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  False dichotomy.
                  How is the command to forgive in order to be forgiven a matter of Law and that believers forgiven without any merit forgiving others because Christ forgave them a false dichotomy? Explain.
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                    How is the command to forgive in order to be forgiven a matter of Law and that believers forgiven without any merit forgiving others because Christ forgave them a false dichotomy? Explain.
                    The contrast between law and grace is a false dichotomy.
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      The contrast between law and grace is a false dichotomy.
                      That claim is not an explanation.

                      Galatians 2:21,
                      . . . I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. . . .

                      Galatians 5:4,
                      . . . Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. . . .
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Sorry for forgetting about this discussion. Fortunately, as a tab-hoarder, I keep several hundred tabs open, and eventually get around to sorting through them

                        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        I'm not so sure your analysis passes muster; Jesus was imparting the Holy Spirit in some sense, not life. It cannot be identical to the reception of the Holy Spirit by all believers, or Pentecost wouldn't mean anything; this appears to have been something just given to the leadership.
                        Of course I disagree with your assessment. I realize what is "clear" in Scripture is often entirely subjective, but to me, it is clear that this is indeed a life-imparting reference, alluding to John 3, Gen. 2, and probably Eze. 36 and 37. It is therefore the prototype of the reception of the Spirit by all believers.

                        That does raise the question of how to harmonize it with the Pentecost account. The traditional Pentecostal view -- and that of many other Charismatic and Evangelical believers -- is that this records the disciples being "born again," while Pentecost records a separate "empowering" event.

                        Some posit that John 20:22 is a symbolic prophetic act, pointing forward to Pentecost.

                        In his two-volume commentary on John's Gospel, Keener addresses the issue at length, and seems to settle on the idea that for literary and theological reasons, John compresses the events from Luke 24-Acts 2 into a single occasion.


                        Secondly, it doesn't make sense that forgiving and retaining sins belongs to each believer, because that would flatly contradict the injuction in the Lord's Prayer to forgive others their trespasses. What makes sense is it being a reference to the keys given to Peter and the concomitant ability to bind and loose (Mt. 18:18).
                        The link to "binding and loosing" is frequently observed, as in the previous citation from the NET Bible, and Keener notes possible relationships in the aforementioned commentary on John's Gospel. That's fine, though I do have a slight concern with the fact that Matt. 18:18 occurs in the context of church discipline, while John 20:23 occurs in the context of the Great Commission.

                        I still see no contextual reason to even suspect the possibility that "receiving the Spirit" and "forgiving or retaining sins" applied only to the Eleven.
                        Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                        Beige Federalist.

                        Nationalist Christian.

                        "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                        Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                        Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                        Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                        Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                        Justice for Matthew Perna!

                        Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                        Comment

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