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Immigration and Stephen Miller

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  • #46
    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Personally, I think the comparisons of Trump to Hitler are accurate in kind, and inaccurate in degree and context. Trump shows many of the personal characteristic of dictatorial rulers. But he lacks the personal motivation to follow through and is in a context where we have many protections built into our system of government to contain him. It merits watching, but not as much concern as I once had when he was first elected.

    I have not seen comparisons of our immigration laws and the holocaust. It is not clear to me how those would even be compared. The general "hatred of other" is similar, I suppose, so perhaps this is another "like in kind but vastly different in degree," but even that is, IMO, a significant stretch.
    I will give you some sources but fully expect you to handwave or nitpick them away...

    https://twitter.com/IlanStavans/stat...76579552468992
    https://forward.com/culture/403526/i...ut-immigrants/
    https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/18/polit...ntv/index.html
    https://www.newsweek.com/ice-directo...re-just-985451
    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...ns-border-nazi
    https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/trum...ters-1.6181446

    Comment


    • #47
      I'll review the articles, and thanks for the links. However, since you've already decided any response I make is going to be handwaving or nitpicking, I don't see a point in taking the time to write a response.

      At some point, I'll probably
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        I'll review the articles, and thanks for the links. However, since you've already decided any response I make is going to be handwaving or nitpicking, I don't see a point in taking the time to write a response.

        At some point, I'll probably
        You can't not.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          You can't not.
          Hmm... that really was a trailing sentence...


          But I certainly can not!
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            Personally, I think the comparisons of Trump to Hitler are accurate in kind, and inaccurate in degree and context. Trump shows many of the personal characteristic of dictatorial rulers. But he lacks the personal motivation to follow through and is in a context where we have many protections built into our system of government to contain him. It merits watching, but not as much concern as I once had when he was first elected.

            I have not seen comparisons of our immigration laws and the holocaust. It is not clear to me how those would even be compared. The general "hatred of other" is similar, I suppose, so perhaps this is another "like in kind but vastly different in degree," but even that is, IMO, a significant stretch.
            I see, so you find it offensive until it's a characterization you happen to agree with, and then it's perfectly fine. I suppose I shouldn't expect otherwise from a moral relativist.
            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
            Than a fool in the eyes of God


            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
              I see, so you find it offensive until it's a characterization you happen to agree with, and then it's perfectly fine.
              I'm pretty sure that's the way it works for most people, MM. Few people find something they agree with "offensive." If they found it offensive, pretty much by definition, they wouldn't agree with it.

              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
              I suppose I shouldn't expect otherwise from a moral relativist.
              Or pretty much anyone else, I suspect. If you disagree - then I'd like to know one position you agree with that you find offensive.
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                I'm pretty sure that's the way it works for most people, MM.
                I'm pretty sure that's nothing more than a pathetic attempt to justify your own inconsistency by insisting that "Well, everybody else does it, too!" You should have outgrown that kind of grade school logic decades ago.

                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                Few people find something they agree with "offensive." If they found it offensive, pretty much by definition, they wouldn't agree with it.
                You've entirely failed to grasp the point. If you claim that something is offensive, then, if you were consistent and not a wishy-washy moral relativist, you would think it offensive no matter who did it, or who it was directed towards.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  I'm pretty sure that's nothing more than a pathetic attempt to justify your own inconsistency by insisting that "Well, everybody else does it, too!" You should have outgrown that kind of grade school logic decades ago.

                  You've entirely failed to grasp the point. If you claim that something is offensive, then, if you were consistent and not a wishy-washy moral relativist, you would think it offensive no matter who did it, or who it was directed towards.
                  Actually, I do. What I found offensive was the claim in the cartoon that Jews immigrated into Germany. While it is possible a few did, there was actually a significant diaspora from Germany during WWII, and a significant underground to facilitate it. The cartoon has a flavor of holocaust denial to it. The joking/sarcastic tone in some following posts seemed significantly misplaced. I would hold that view for anyone who posted such things.

                  And I note that you deleted the challenge in my post and did not respond to it.

                  P.S. To CP, anyone who stands up and says "that is not right" is probably going to sound a bit "holier than thou" to some. Such is life. I can handle the accusations.
                  Last edited by carpedm9587; 08-14-2018, 10:29 PM.
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    Actually, I do. What I found offensive was the claim in the cartoon that Jews immigrated into Germany. While it is possible a few did, there was actually a significant diaspora from Germany during WWII, and a significant underground to facilitate it. The cartoon has a flavor of holocaust denial to it.
                    Um... yes, that was the point, that the Jews didn't immigrate into Germany during World War II and instead were leaving it, which therefore refuted the comparison that was being made. The claim in the comic that they immigrated into Germany was clearly meant sarcastically even in the comic itself.

                    For reference for those who don't want to dig back into it, this is the comic post in question:
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    [ATTACH=CONFIG]29877[/ATTACH]
                    I'm very confused as to how you could read that comic and somehow come away with the idea it was actually saying that the Jews were immigrating into Germany during World War II. The whole joke is that that claim wasn't true.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      I confronted the point by pointing out that it's logically fallacious. In order to overcome your logical fallacy, you need to explain how correctly describing them as illegal immigrants and justly holding them accountable for their crimes makes them somehow less than human. Is a drug dealer or bank robber less than human when we call them criminals and throw them in jail? Of course not. All I see from you is a desperate attempt to focus on the innocent children in order to take the attention away from their not-so-innocent parents.
                      And once again you refused to see it from the childrens' perspective.

                      And illegal immigrants are human too. I don't see you showing much compassion for their situation but a greater interest in separating them from their children, throwing them in jail perhaps never being able to see their children again. That is why I have no problem saying that it is omportant to remember they are human beings first and foremost.
                      "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        I'm pretty sure that's nothing more than a pathetic attempt to justify your own inconsistency by insisting that "Well, everybody else does it, too!" You should have outgrown that kind of grade school logic decades ago.
                        So no more justifications of Trump by pointing to Hillary, Obama or someone else. Great. Thanks.
                        "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          What I found offensive was the claim in the cartoon that Jews immigrated into Germany.
                          Seriously, do you not understand sarcasm and humor to the point that you completely missed the joke? The intent of the comic was to satirize liberals who compare our President to Hitler, or who claim that enforcing our border laws is akin to genocide.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            I'll review the articles, and thanks for the links. However, since you've already decided any response I make is going to be handwaving or nitpicking, I don't see a point in taking the time to write a response.

                            At some point, I'll probably
                            I said I expect, but you could always surprise me!

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                              I'm very confused as to how you could read that comic and somehow come away with the idea it was actually saying that the Jews were immigrating into Germany during World War II.
                              That was how I read the comic. That reading is reinforced by the final picture of the character holding a history book, implying that the previous statement they made is indeed accurate history and that the other character is historically ignorant.

                              The whole joke is that that claim wasn't true.
                              IMO the comic is just really badly written and not at all funny. Even if your explanation of what the joke is supposed to be is true, which I am not at all convinced of, it still seems like a very bad comic.
                              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                P.S. To CP, anyone who stands up and says "that is not right" is probably going to sound a bit "holier than thou" to some. Such is life. I can handle the accusations.
                                If that were really true, Carp, you wouldn't have felt the need to call me out on this.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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