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301 Predator Priests...

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    The Catholic Church has been and always will be a cult that deifies sinful men and worships a false God.
    No - that is not correct. It is simply the oldest segment of the Christian Church. To say it is a cult is to say Christianity itself is a cult. Luther was a Catholic and broke off only from certain traditions of the time, and retained many beliefs a large part of the Protestant Christian Church no longer holds to. The Christian Church is fractured. Horribly so. To the point it is almost impossible for an outsider to figure out what in the heck real Christian faith is. And I'm afraid thinking like you express here is to a large extent what has produced that mess. "What - shall the hand say to the foot 'I have no need of thee'?". All who hold to faith in the Deity and Resurrection of Christ, to the content of the Early confessions, should be considered likely members of the Church unless they deviate by some major element of those early confessions.

    Jim
    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
      At least in this case, it seems to be more a case of what was going on. The number of reported incidents in Pennsylvania actually dropped off considerably starting in the 1990's (82 incidents were from the 1980's, but the 1990's had a dramatic reduction to 16, then to 5 in the 2000's), which I believe was when they started enacting better policies to try to protect people. Of course, it's also possible that people are simply more likely to report incidents from longer ago because they've better come to grips with it.

      But as for what was/is going on? A combination of some individuals being extremely screwed up and no one in higher authority doing anything about it for too long due to fear of scandal, which of course only caused the scandal to be way worse when it actually did break.

      While it's often blamed, I'm not sure the celibacy requirement is that major a factor, because I'm not sure if things are necessarily that much better in the Protestant churches, which rarely have any kind of requirement of celibacy. The lack of a central authority for Protestant churches makes data harder to determine (even individual churches that are part of a larger denomination, such as the Southern Baptist Churches, retain considerable autonomy), but I stumbled upon this article which examines, based on reports from insurance companies that cover the majority of Protestant churches, the number of times there have been accusations against them. While admittedly the numbers (260 per year from accusers that are younger than 18) is only the number of accusations, not the number that could be seen as credible, contrariwise this doesn't include all the Protestant churches and doesn't include any that didn't end up going to the insurance companies.

      The Catholic Church is of course the one getting the most attention in regards to this, which is understandable because it's the biggest denomination in the United States, but I'm left wondering if things that necessarily that much better (on average) in the non-Catholic churches, which again do not have celibacy requirements for their ministers.
      It certainly happens a lot in Protestant churches, along with other sorts of abuse the the celibacy requirement would tend to filter. And people in authority, Christian or not (e.g. Nixon) would rather cover up an embarrassing situation than deal with it head on. The problem is that we Christians claim to be redeemed, to have a new life in Christ that has changed us, made us seekers of God and His ways (which would include sexual purity and a rejection of any form of sexual deviancy as defined by scripture). As such when these sorts of things come to light, it exposes a great hypocrisy, especially if the offenders and their leaders do not seek repentance and change, do not seek first the well-being of those abused over their own shame.

      Internally we all know that Christs forgiveness and redemption comes in spite of our sin, not because we have necessarily overcome it. But in practice we often excuse our own sin rather than repent of it, and we tend to expound on and judge the sin of those around us where their sin is not also our own sin. It is in many ways the opposite of what Christ taught and what we purport to believe (get the log out of our own eye before we worry about the splinter in someone elses).


      Jim
      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
        Luther held to the perpetual virginity of Mary as well. Do you think he was a heretic?
        As did Zwingli and Wesley with the former calling her "ever chaste" and saying

        "I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin."


        And the later stating

        "I believe he [Jesus Christ] was born of the blessed Virgin, who, as well after she brought him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin."

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          As did Zwingli and Wesley with the former calling her "ever chaste" and saying

          "I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin."


          And the later stating

          "I believe he [Jesus Christ] was born of the blessed Virgin, who, as well after she brought him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin."
          IIRC, it was actually generally believed by Protestants until the 19th century.
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            IIRC, it was actually generally believed by Protestants until the 19th century.
            I think that the Reformed Church rejected the concept for longer than that.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              If one is following false leaders, then one can hardly be classed among the good. Followers of the Antichrist? Christians? Eh.
              Ohh... I had no idea you were one of those who classified the pope as "antichrist." My mistake.
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                Luther held to the perpetual virginity of Mary as well. Do you think he was a heretic?
                On that point at least since the Bible records Jesus as having siblings. Unless Joseph had other wives then it's impossible for Mary to have been a virgin, and believing she was is a clear contradiction of the Biblical record.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Roy View Post
                  But in this case, the people who protect the guilty include the head of the organisation. Both JP II[1] and Benedict XVI[2] protected those guilty of abusing minors or covering up such abuse.

                  [1]Marcial Maciel, Bernard Law
                  [2]John Magee and other Irish priests
                  Good point. It does appear that mistakes were made all the way to the top - and were indeed a matter of policy. However, I still am very uncomfortable painting 1.2B people with a single brush, especially since the vast majority had no idea this was happening, and were appalled when they learned of it.

                  We tend to over-generalize with our indictments...in this era of "us versus them" thinking. Liberals this. Conservatives that. Catholics this. Protestants that. White people this. Black people that. This labeling and applying one sweeping description to an entire class of people is, IMO, destructive.
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Nobody has ever said everyone in the Catholic Church is wrong, evil or corrupt. You are the one trying to make that claim so you can deny it, just like you did with the VA. You are burning a straw man.
                    I suggest you reread the OP - the entire first line, and all of Post #4. Those are the posts to which I (and others) have been responding.

                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    In the case of the Catholic church in this case, it seems that at least part of the problem is the leadership's policy of sweeping it under the rug, allowing this kind of stuff to continue, instead of rooting it out and exposing it to the light. So not only do you have some "bad apples" in these priests, but in the leadership of the local and worldwide RCC helping to keep this buried.
                    No. They do have a leadership problem. But the numbers don't support your statements. Pennsylvania, the lastest diocese to have these issues revealed, has 1091 active priests today. Assuming a ministry that spans a lifetime, priests serve a typical maximum of about 50 years. This scandal identified 300 priests over a 50-year time period. That means the diocese probably had over 2000 priests in that time period. 300 bad priests (15%) is horrible, but to impugn the other 1700 (85%), many of whom may well have known nothing about it, is simply not right. And "the catholic church" is not just the priests, it is the other non-clergy leaders and laity. In Pennsylvania, that is 3.2 million people. Even if 15% of all priests were engaged in these practices, and ALL of the leadership were engaged in covering it up, that is a minuscule fraction of "the catholic church." Yes - those who were involved should be punished to the full extent of the law. Heck, I'd castrated the ^&^((*^&(. But to impugn the other priests who knew nothing about it, and the vast population of laity with a sweeping "the catholic church" is simply unjust.

                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    John 3:20 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.
                    Ummm...thanks... I guess...
                    Last edited by carpedm9587; 08-16-2018, 08:24 PM.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      On that point at least since the Bible records Jesus as having siblings. Unless Joseph had other wives then it's impossible for Mary to have been a virgin, and believing she was is a clear contradiction of the Biblical record.
                      Calling somebody a heretic doesn't mean they're merely wrong on one point, it actually means you're anathematizing them.
                      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                        Neither are heresy, neither are a contradiction of scripture. You'll be hard pressed to find a Church Father who thought of Mary as anything less than what Eastern Orthodox and Catholics agree on her.



                        What scriptures have you been reading? A lot of things in the Bible are called holy in the Old Testament. Only God is holy in and of Himself, but other things can be made holy by Him. By His presence. God Himself even calls the a nation holy "and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation."

                        Christians took to calling each other holy ones, or as we would say it, 'saints'.

                        Source: Romans 1:7

                        To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

                        © Copyright Original Source


                        Source: 1 Peters 1:16

                        for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

                        © Copyright Original Source

                        If the Church is the holy people of God, it seems hardly inappropriate to call the head of the Church by that title.



                        Neither Catholics, nor Eastern Orthodox, nor the Coptics, believe it is the priest who forgives the sins of people, but that Christ bestowed the authority to forgive sins to the apostles, and they passed them on by laying of hands. Second, the pope can't just declare a person forgiven, it is always done the way these things are done by confession and repentance. More likely you're thinking of people asking the Pope to bless them, like Jacob asking Isaac's blessing.

                        Again, hardly unbiblical.



                        The answer is that it isn't worship. Your modern senses of what's appropriate being offended is noted, but there's nothing wrong with holding a person in office in respect.
                        Revelation 15:4, "Who will not fear you, Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy."

                        Yes, God calls us to be holy and sinless, but it would be a lie to claim that you have actually achieved that state. As the saying goes, Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven, and I am under no delusion that the Pope has any more spiritual significance or authority than a pastor at a local church.

                        As for Jesus granting the Apostles the authority to forgive sins (I assume you're referring to John 20:23), the context does not suggest that this was a command to all people for all time since he was speaking directly to the Apostles. The only mediator between us and God is Jesus Christ himself, and we can go directly to him. There's no Biblical justification for adding a third person to the equation.

                        Suggesting that I'm offended by any of this was cute but missed the mark.

                        It takes a heck of a lot more than that to ruffle these feathers.
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                          Calling somebody a heretic doesn't mean they're merely wrong on one point, it actually means you're anathematizing them.
                          I suppose I don't have a technical understanding of that term. I simply mean it to indicate someone who holds a belief that is contrary to scripture.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            Ohh... I had no idea you were one of those who classified the pope as "antichrist." My mistake.
                            I'm not. Thank you for acknowledging that there are those who do, though.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              On that point at least since the Bible records Jesus as having siblings. Unless Joseph had other wives then it's impossible for Mary to have been a virgin, and believing she was is a clear contradiction of the Biblical record.
                              Obviously Joseph and Mary were staunch anti-abortionists who therefore convinced their neighbors to let them adopt their unwanted babies rather than have their neighbors have abortions.
                              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                                Revelation 15:4, "Who will not fear you, Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy."
                                Taking hyperbole literally? Check.
                                Yes, God calls us to be holy and sinless, but it would be a lie to claim that you have actually achieved that state. As the saying goes, Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven, and I am under no delusion that the Pope has any more spiritual significance or authority than a pastor at a local church.
                                Eh, I don't think even the most fervent Catholic would opine that the Pope is literally sinless.
                                As for Jesus granting the Apostles the authority to forgive sins (I assume you're referring to John 20:23), the context does not suggest that this was a command to all people for all time since he was speaking directly to the Apostles.
                                Why in the world do you think that would only have pertained to the apostles?
                                The only mediator between us and God is Jesus Christ himself, and we can go directly to him. There's no Biblical justification for adding a third person to the equation.
                                I hope you've never, ever asked someone else to pray for you, then.
                                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                                sigpic
                                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                                Comment

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