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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostI will simply note that contrary to what most if not all skeptics believe, the Bible is far less ambiguous and open to interpretation than the technical standards you describe. Skeptics who claim otherwise are speaking from ignorance.
An it is not ignorance of the Bible that makes people think biblical interpretation is complex, it is knowledge of it. The simplest mind in the world can approach the bible in complete ignorance and say "this is so easy I can just read it and know the answers" (as you yourself demonstrate), but once an intelligent person actually studies the various interpretations for many years the realize that it's actually far far more complex than that, and that translation issues socio-cultural differences and various possible interpretations mean it is foolish to just try and ignorantly "read the bible" and expect to come away with anything remotely close to the author's intended meaning.
If you accept the premise that God exists, if only for the sake of argument, then you can accept that he can guide us to a proper understanding."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostThe Councils nailed down the details of the Trinity and Hypostatic Union when they were disputed, though they didn't come up with them.
They actually didn't authorize the canon of scripture,
however; the 22 OT books were in agreement with the list accepted by the Jews, with a varying number of deuterocanonical works also accepted as useful. The first list of NT books in agreement with those accepted today is from a letter penned by Athanasius in the 4th century, but that was never voted on in council either.
But, my main concern was to counter MM’s ridiculous dismissal of the RCC tradition as a cult that deifies sinful men and worships a false God. As I said, if anything is an heretical cult worshipping "false gods", it is Evangelicalism and Protestantism in general NOT the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. The latter have dominated Christianity for most of its history.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostIt's the whole "Forgive me, father, for I have sinned" thing. It's not his place.If I've sinned against God then I need to go directly to him.
What would you say if someone came to you and said, "I've sinned against God! Can you ask him to forgive me?" I would say, "No, you need to ask him yourself."Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostI don't think that is what they do though. don't they just ask the saints to intercede for them? Basically I heard it explained as the same as when you ask your friends to pray for you. My question is how can the saints hear prayers in the first place and how can they hear prayers for thousands of people at a time? Seems logistically impossible for anyone who is not omniscient. Plus it would take up all of their time. Seems like a lot of work for heaven.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Terraceth View PostWell, for starters, despite what you'll sometimes see in popular entertainment, the line is actually "Bless me, father, for I have sinned."Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostWell the Councils did come up with the doctrines of the Trinity and the Hypostatic Union inasmuch as they had to define what was meant by Christians saying that Jesus was God and yet maintain the concept of monotheism. The definitions were necessary to counter the many heretical explanations, which were rife, of what are essentially contradictory doctrines.
The Council of Trent did actually, as a counter to the Reformation.
The collection of New Testament books took place gradually over many years by the pressure of various kinds of circumstances and influences as some writings came into favour and others were excluded. The first time there is a reference to the NT canon as we have it today was not until Athanasius’ list of canonical books in the fourth century...as you say...and this was quite late.
But, my main concern was to counter MM’s ridiculous dismissal of the RCC tradition as a cult that deifies sinful men and worships a false God. As I said, if anything is an heretical cult worshipping "false gods", it is Evangelicalism and Protestantism in general NOT the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. The latter have dominated Christianity for most of its history.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostEnter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostThe Councils didn't come up with anything new; what they did was definitively decide between two (or more) interpretations, and in a couple cases, safeguard their decision via the formulation of creeds.
Yes, but only for Catholics - and defining a canon after 1500 years is a bit odd, IMO.
There are a number of lists before that, none of which vary substantially with it. Most of them are quoted or alluded to even before Irenaeus in the late 2nd century. There are a couple others alluded to here and there, but the difference in reference to those which eventually were part of the recognized canon and those which were not is stark.
Eh, I wouldn't consider Evangelicals/Protestants in general to be worshipping 'false gods'; most could at least be considered Chalcedonians, and the only Council they tend to take issue with is the 7th, which dogmatized icons.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostYou also assume that one must interpret scripture without supernatural guidance. If you accept the premise that God exists, if only for the sake of argument, then you can accept that he can guide us to a proper understanding."Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI don't know about Catholicism, but the Orthodox response is, "May the blessing of the Lord be upon you."
your sins, in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost"
Sometimes varies slightly.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostOh certainly. But the variations of belief re the Trinity and the Double Nature of Christ were breeding grounds of heresy and some “heresies”, e.g. Arianism, nearly took over orthodoxy as the dominant form of Christianity.
The Creeds were/are not so much statements of belief as warnings of what NOT to believe if one is "to be saved”...to quote the Athanasian Creed.
Oh there were lots and not such "stark" differences really. The New Testament came together gradually via a series of councils and popular usage until the books became the standard for most of Christianity.
But there were some that barely scraped into the canon, e.g. Hebrews, 2 Peter and Revelation et al were widely disputed.
And some that were ultimately excluded e.g. the Third Epistle to the Corinthians was included in some early lists of sacred writings and the Shepherd of Hermas was widely popular and had great influence in the first couple of centuries of Christianity.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by seer View PostWhat the freak happened to the Catholic Church! Pure evil...
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostArianism needed the support of emperors to have a shot, and notably failed once that support disappeared.
Eh, sort of. The Nicene Creed did originally include anathemas, but those were dropped in the reformulation at Constantinople. Ironic that you reference the Athanasian Creed, which has nothing whatsoever to do with Athanasius, and AFAIK was not promulgated by any council.
I can't think of a single council which pronounced anything to do with the canon.
Hebrews was disputed because of confusion regarding its authorship; Revelation, because it was deeply connected with chiliasm, an early heresy.
Yes, the Shepherd of Hermas was widely popular early. The so-called Third Epistle to the Corinithans, not so much; I remember it chiefly because someone admitted to having composed it pseudonymously and was roundly condemned for it. Hat tip to Tertullian.
The Shepherd of Hermas and many other scriptures may well have ended up as New Testament canonical texts, e.g. 1st Clement was included in several collections of Christian texts as was the Didache, which is one of the earliest texts that ultimately failed to make it into the canonical New Testament,“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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