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  • #46
    Originally posted by Roy View Post
    This.

    Far more of the cases that have been uncovered occurred after the church superiors were aware of the offenders than occurred before the church superiors knew. If reports of abuse were handled immediately or reported to secular authorities, rather than by being ignored or by moving the offenders to new dioceses, the scale of the problem would be a small fraction of what it is now.

    Those church superiors who fail to report offenders and continue to allow them access no new victims should be charged with aiding and abetting.
    Oh crap, Roy and I agreed on something. The end is nigh.

    Comment


    • #47
      Why didn't they tell the perps in confession that penance would be to turn themselves in to the authorities?
      If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
        Why didn't they tell the perps in confession that penance would be to turn themselves in to the authorities?
        The perps may or may not have confessed these particular sins, but yeah (better, withhold absolution until penance has been performed).
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          Oh crap, Roy and I agreed on something. The end is nigh.
          Some of your positions are reasonable
          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

          MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
          MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

          seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Roy View Post
            Some of your positions are reasonable

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              Oh crap, Roy and I agreed on something. The end is nigh.
              [*Looks up at the hilltop*]


              4FourHorsemen.gif





              Yup. Pretty much.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Roy View Post
                This.

                Far more of the cases that have been uncovered occurred after the church superiors were aware of the offenders than occurred before the church superiors knew. If reports of abuse were handled immediately or reported to secular authorities, rather than by being ignored or by moving the offenders to new dioceses, the scale of the problem would be a small fraction of what it is now.

                Those church superiors who fail to report offenders and continue to allow them access no new victims should be charged with aiding and abetting.
                The same problem exists in Protestant churches. Not sure the extent, but often the offenders are just advised to move to 'other ministries' that do not involve children or young people Rarely are the reasons for the change communicated to the 'next' job (if the were the person would be facing charges). The Catholics are not the only ones putting the reputation of the local church where the incident occurs above the well being of the members of that church. Since Protestants allow marriage for their ministers, there are also sometimes similar sorts of cover ups related to abuse, and in some cases where the abuse involves a church member, the abused victims are encouraged to forgive the abuser and ostracized if they refuse to co-operate.

                There is a shady underbelly to these issues that is a real shame. But as of yet there is no concerted effort from the tops of the various leadership hierarchies to expose and purge the problems from within (of those with such hierarchies). For the more independent congregations with loose hierarchies or no hierarchy, its still rare that it doesn't become a secreted scandal*.

                Jim

                *and if one looks at what happens when it is not secreted, one can understand why those in charge want to bury it. It's usually a very big mess.
                Last edited by oxmixmudd; 08-16-2018, 01:43 PM.
                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  One can accept the historical validity of the New Testament books, without accepting the authority of a Pope, or the Assumption of Mary, her sinlessness, or perpetual virginity or Immaculate Conception .
                  Exactly. The Biblical canon is a fact of history and not something dictated to us by a men.
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    Exactly. The Biblical canon is a fact of history and not something dictated to us by a men.
                    True enough. The Biblical canon, the Dormition/Assumption of Mary, her sinlessness, and her perpetual virginity were all generally believed throughout the church for much of its history without being dictated by a man or group of men (the Biblical canon was first dogmatized at the Council of Trent, only normative for Roman Catholics).
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Doesn't matter where it originated, the sinlessness of Mary/perpetual virginity is heresy and a blatant contradiction of scripture.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                        If you think a central tenet of Catholicism is to "worship" the Pope, then you know nothing about Catholicism.
                        Why is he referred to as holy when scripture is explicit that only God can be referred to as such? And why do people ask him to forgive their sins when the Bible is clear that only God can forgive?

                        I suppose you can argue that's not "worship" as such, but it's dangerously unbiblical veneration of a sinful man.
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          Doesn't matter where it originated, the sinlessness of Mary/perpetual virginity is heresy and a blatant contradiction of scripture.
                          Your opinion is duly noted.

                          In any case, this is a discussion for another thread.
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            Doesn't matter where it originated, the sinlessness of Mary/perpetual virginity is heresy and a blatant contradiction of scripture.
                            Luther held to the perpetual virginity of Mary as well. Do you think he was a heretic?
                            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              What the freak happened to the Catholic Church! Pure evil...
                              See my response above. This is not by any means just an RCC problem.

                              Jim
                              My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                              If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                              This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                                Doesn't matter where it originated, the sinlessness of Mary/perpetual virginity is heresy and a blatant contradiction of scripture.
                                Neither are heresy, neither are a contradiction of scripture. You'll be hard pressed to find a Church Father who thought of Mary as anything less than what Eastern Orthodox and Catholics agree on her.

                                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                                Why is he referred to as holy when scripture is explicit that only God can be referred to as such?
                                What scriptures have you been reading? A lot of things in the Bible are called holy in the Old Testament. Only God is holy in and of Himself, but other things can be made holy by Him. By His presence. God Himself even calls the a nation holy "and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation."

                                Christians took to calling each other holy ones, or as we would say it, 'saints'.

                                Source: Romans 1:7

                                To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

                                © Copyright Original Source


                                Source: 1 Peters 1:16

                                for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

                                © Copyright Original Source

                                If the Church is the holy people of God, it seems hardly inappropriate to call the head of the Church by that title.

                                And why do people ask him to forgive their sins when the Bible is clear that only God can forgive?
                                Neither Catholics, nor Eastern Orthodox, nor the Coptics, believe it is the priest who forgives the sins of people, but that Christ bestowed the authority to forgive sins to the apostles, and they passed them on by laying of hands. Second, the pope can't just declare a person forgiven, it is always done the way these things are done by confession and repentance. More likely you're thinking of people asking the Pope to bless them, like Jacob asking Isaac's blessing.

                                Again, hardly unbiblical.

                                I suppose you can argue that's not "worship" as such,
                                The answer is that it isn't worship. Your modern senses of what's appropriate being offended is noted, but there's nothing wrong with holding a person in office in respect.
                                Last edited by Leonhard; 08-16-2018, 03:35 PM.

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