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301 Predator Priests...

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Roy View Post
    But in this case, the people who protect the guilty include the head of the organisation. Both JP II[1] and Benedict XVI[2] protected those guilty of abusing minors or covering up such abuse.

    [1]Marcial Maciel, Bernard Law
    [2]John Magee and other Irish priests
    I'm a bit confused by what you mean by "protect the guilty" in regards to Law and Magee. As far as I can tell, they weren't shielded from criminal prosecution (Law was actually stated by the state attorney general to not be guilty of anything criminal), and they were replaced after the scandals were known. Unless there's evidence that the scandals were by the popes beforehand (which may be the case, but in looking up information I didn't see anything indicating that), I'm not sure what you're claiming was done to protect them.

    Maciel is his own can of worms, though. Still, it's not clear what part John Paul II played, if any, in regards to the accusations against him being inintially disregarded. Though admittedly, simply shifting the blame onto another high-ranking person in the Vatican--I've seen Cardinal Angelo Sudano in particular be fingered--isn't much of an improvement.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
      On that point at least since the Bible records Jesus as having siblings. Unless Joseph had other wives then it's impossible for Mary to have been a virgin, and believing she was is a clear contradiction of the Biblical record.
      Unless St. Joseph was a widower, and a father of six by the time he entered into the marriage with the Virgin Mary. Adelphos here means something slightly different, such as with Abraham and Lot who weren't blood brothers.
      Last edited by Leonhard; 08-17-2018, 01:43 AM.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        The Catholic Church has been and always will be a cult that deifies sinful men and worships a false God.
        This is a very myopic, parochial view of Christianity.

        The original Christian Church consisted of five patriarchates...in Rome, Constantinople (now Istanbul), Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem. These were the bodies that in Council drew up the main doctrines of Christianity such as the Holy Trinity, the Hypostatic Union of Christ plus authorising the canon of scripture.

        The East-West Schism of the eleventh century divided the Latin-speaking See of Rome from the four Greek-speaking patriarchates, forming distinct Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches. These together comprised the Christian Church for most of its history. The Protestant Reformation was a mere 500 years ago.

        If anything is an heretical cult worshipping "false gods", it is Evangelicalism and Protestantism in general NOT the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches.
        Last edited by Tassman; 08-17-2018, 02:59 AM.
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
          I'm a bit confused by what you mean by "protect the guilty" in regards to Law and Magee.
          They were both guilty of covering up cases of abuse, yet both were allowed to remain in their posts for some time after the scandals broke.
          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

          MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
          MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

          seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

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          • #80
            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            I suggest you reread the OP - the entire first line, and all of Post #4. Those are the posts to which I (and others) have been responding.



            No. They do have a leadership problem. But the numbers don't support your statements. Pennsylvania, the lastest diocese to have these issues revealed, has 1091 active priests today. Assuming a ministry that spans a lifetime, priests serve a typical maximum of about 50 years. This scandal identified 300 priests over a 50-year time period. That means the diocese probably had over 2000 priests in that time period. 300 bad priests (15%) is horrible, but to impugn the other 1700 (85%), many of whom may well have known nothing about it, is simply not right. And "the catholic church" is not just the priests, it is the other non-clergy leaders and laity. In Pennsylvania, that is 3.2 million people. Even if 15% of all priests were engaged in these practices, and ALL of the leadership were engaged in covering it up, that is a minuscule fraction of "the catholic church." Yes - those who were involved should be punished to the full extent of the law. Heck, I'd castrated the ^&^((*^&(. But to impugn the other priests who knew nothing about it, and the vast population of laity with a sweeping "the catholic church" is simply unjust.
            You are doing it again. Trying to make it look like I said everyone is to blame so you can trot out numbers to show me wrong. You are just burning a straw man. I have nothing to respond to. carry on.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              This is a very myopic, parochial view of Christianity.

              The original Christian Church consisted of five patriarchates...in Rome, Constantinople (now Istanbul), Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem. These were the bodies that in Council drew up the main doctrines of Christianity such as the Holy Trinity, the Hypostatic Union of Christ plus authorising the canon of scripture.
              The Councils nailed down the details of the Trinity and Hypostatic Union when they were disputed, though they didn't come up with them. They actually didn't authorize the canon of scripture, however; the 22 OT books were in agreement with the list accepted by the Jews, with a varying number of deuterocanonical works also accepted as useful. The first list of NT books in agreement with those accepted today is from a letter penned by Athanasius in the 4th century, but that was never voted on in council either.
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                I'm not. Thank you for acknowledging that there are those who do, though.
                Then I misread you, and I'm not sure what you were saying...
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  You are doing it again. Trying to make it look like I said everyone is to blame so you can trot out numbers to show me wrong. You are just burning a straw man. I have nothing to respond to. carry on.
                  Actually, on this one, you're right. I went back and reread your comments, and you were far more careful with language, referring to "part of the problem" and focusing your comments on the leadership. I was thrown off by the "in the case of the Catholic Church" at the beginning. I should have read more closely, and I apologize.


                  ETA: Oh...right... forgot this:
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    I think that the Reformed Church rejected the concept for longer than that.
                    In doing so, they were breaking with Calvin.
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      Taking hyperbole literally? Check.

                      Eh, I don't think even the most fervent Catholic would opine that the Pope is literally sinless.

                      Why in the world do you think that would only have pertained to the apostles?

                      I hope you've never, ever asked someone else to pray for you, then.
                      You think it's hyperbole to say that only God is holy? Interesting. Is it also hyperbole to say all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God?

                      I think it only applies to the Apostles because it does not appear to be a general command intended for all believers, and I certainly hope you don't take it upon yourself to grant or deny God's forgiveness. I can forgive a transgression against me, but I can not forgive one against God.

                      Finally, asking someone to pray for you is a heck of a lot different than asking them to forgive your sins, or to solicit God's forgiveness on your behalf.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        Then I misread you, and I'm not sure what you were saying...
                        My last response to you turns out to have been unfair, since you did acknowledge it earlier. I am arguing, contra your position, that there should be a distinction between the leaders and everyone else; if one is following a leader espousing wrong beliefs, then one is necessarily wrong too.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          My last response to you turns out to have been unfair, since you did acknowledge it earlier.
                          Thanks for that. It was gracious of you.

                          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          I am arguing, contra your position, that there should be a distinction between the leaders and everyone else; if one is following a leader espousing wrong beliefs, then one is necessarily wrong too.
                          I would take that as a given. If the leader says, "the earth is flat," and I follow that leader into that belief, then I am going to hold a wrong belief by definition. But "the earth is flat" is a verifiable statement. The problem with religions is there is no basis for verification. Every distinct religious group, by definition, believes the other religious groups are "wrong," at least to some degree. If they didn't, they wouldn't be separate. Every time a dispute arises in a religious organization, it is either quelled by the leadership (and sufficiently dissatisfied members go looking for a different church more to their liking or more aligned with their beliefs), or (usually if leadership is involved) it is resolved by a schism in the religion, creating two distinct religious groups that have the same beliefs on pretty much everything, except the specific thing that led to the schism. Christianity began to fragment almost from the day the original sect emerged, and today there are over 2500 distinct "Christian" sects across the planet. The variation in belief ranges from relatively small to ginormous. And each one thinks the others are wrong and following "mistaken leaders." From the outside looking in (now), it looks like a mess.

                          But that doesn't make everyone in that religion "evil." And if the leadership is engaging in evil acts, unbeknownst to the members, the members cannot be held accountable and should not be judged for it, IMO. I cannot be held responsible for another person's actions if I knew nothing about them and/or had no capability of affecting them.
                          Last edited by carpedm9587; 08-17-2018, 09:57 AM.
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            Actually, on this one, you're right. I went back and reread your comments, and you were far more careful with language, referring to "part of the problem" and focusing your comments on the leadership. I was thrown off by the "in the case of the Catholic Church" at the beginning. I should have read more closely, and I apologize.


                            ETA: Oh...right... forgot this:
                            Rise my son, and be blessed.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              You think it's hyperbole to say that only God is holy? Interesting.
                              In that context, it appears to be hyperbole. It is true that only God is holy by nature, but many are called holy in scripture ("saint" literally means "holy one").
                              Is it also hyperbole to say all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God?
                              Have you read the context? Yes, it's hyperbole, though it's also largely true.
                              I think it only applies to the Apostles because it does not appear to be a general command intended for all believers, and I certainly hope you don't take it upon yourself to grant or deny God's forgiveness.
                              I agree that it doesn't appear to be a general command intended for all believers, but why would it stop with them? It's not as if sin was no longer operative after their generation.
                              I can forgive a transgression against me, but I can not forgive one against God.
                              Sure.
                              Finally, asking someone to pray for you is a heck of a lot different than asking them to forgive your sins, or to solicit God's forgiveness on your behalf.
                              I'm not quite sure where you're going with this; is this a continuation of your preceding argument, or a push-back against prayer to the saints? If the latter, I don't know of anyone who prays to a saint asking them to forgive their sins. On the other hand, what's wrong with seeking God's forgiveness for someone else?
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                              sigpic
                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                Rise my son, and be blessed.
                                :
                                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                                Comment

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