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  • #31
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    To be somewhat fair, the RCC has been considered to be an entirely bad orchard by some for going on 500 years now.
    Yes, of this I am aware. But even THAT should refer to the clerical hierarchy of the church, most notably the top leadership. Even Luther wasn't talking about all of the people that make up the church. He was talking about the corruption that had invaded so much of the church hierarchy.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
      That argument can be used against Protestants as well, including Evangelicals. Where is there a NT list of the NT books ? There is nothing in the NT to say that those books are

      Holy
      Scripture
      27 in number
      identified by name
      God-breathed
      The NT itself, via 2 Tim. 3:16 and 2 Pet. 3:16, at least inferentially shows that Paul's writings are inspired, regardless of what some supposedly "sacred" tradition says.


      canonical
      with all their parts
      to be read for all time to come
      throughout the whole Church

      - yet Evangelicals accept and defend all these propositions. Despite the silence of the NT about all of them. Evangelicalism relies on Sacred Tradition as truly - though not as completely - as the CC does.
      While it is true that we believe that all parts are to be "read," most of understand that many if not most parts of the epistles were correctives and responses to specific situations in the 1st-C, and only apply elsewhere and "elsewhen" to the extent that situations are comparable.
      Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

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      Nationalist Christian.

      "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

      Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        And who is the head of the Catholic Church?

        Maybe there are Catholics who don't worship the Pope and hang on his every pronouncement like it's the Word of God, or kneel and pray to statues of dead saints, or seek guidance from the Virgin Mary, but then one would wonder why they're Catholics at all since those acts are pretty central to Catholicism.
        If you think a central tenet of Catholicism is to "worship" the Pope, then you know nothing about Catholicism.
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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        • #34
          Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
          The NT itself, via 2 Tim. 3:16 and 2 Pet. 3:16, at least inferentially shows that Paul's writings are inspired, regardless of what some supposedly "sacred" tradition says.
          The latter, yes; the former, not so much.
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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          • #35
            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            Yes, of this I am aware. But even THAT should refer to the clerical hierarchy of the church, most notably the top leadership. Even Luther wasn't talking about all of the people that make up the church. He was talking about the corruption that had invaded so much of the church hierarchy.
            If one is following false leaders, then one can hardly be classed among the good. Followers of the Antichrist? Christians? Eh.
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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            • #36
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              The latter, yes; the former, not so much.
              The former is, AFAIK, the only Scripture that explicitly refers to Scripture as "God-breathed." So I cited it to establish that portion of the belief. The second places Paul's writings in that class.

              Admittedly, I don't know of any passage that explicitly places any of the *other* NT writings in the classes of either "Scripture" or "God-breathed," including the Gospels.
              Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

              Beige Federalist.

              Nationalist Christian.

              "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

              Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

              Proud member of the this space left blank community.

              Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

              Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

              Justice for Matthew Perna!

              Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                The NT itself, via 2 Tim. 3:16 and 2 Pet. 3:16, at least inferentially shows that Paul's writings are inspired, regardless of what some supposedly "sacred" tradition says.
                The Fundamentalists I’ve come across don’t think much of argument from inference - that is, from what the Westminster Catechism calls “good and necessary consequence”; they want explicit Biblical warrant for X, Y & Z. But there is no warrant of that kind for the things I mentioned.

                They think textually, not theologically. These Fundamentalists have no conception of a mainstream Christian tradition. The magisterial Protestant Churches do. Their notion of Scriptura Sola does not exclude appealing to Fathers, Councils, Creeds - with the proviso that these are all liable to correction by Scripture. The Fundamentalists I have encountered care nothing for any of that; I have on occasion found myself defending Calvin (which I am happy to do, BTW) against them. With a Calvinist, one can argue over the Council of Orange in 529, or the Synod of Dort in 1619 - but trying that with these Fundamentalists would be useless. For them, if X is not word for word in the Bible (and sometimes, even if it is), X has no validity.

                I spend a fair deal of time trying to persuade other Catholics that the Reformers had a much more nuanced notion of the meaning of Scriptura Sola than US Fundamentalists seem to.

                There is no Biblical list of NT books - they are received on the basis of Tradition. The very Tradition that was accepted and passed on by men who venerated the BVM, prayed to the Saints, and respected the Popes: the very things the OP singled out as objectionable. The Fathers were certainly not in all respects like Catholics today; but they were even further removed from US Fundamentalists. Rome and Constantinople have their differences, which ought not to be waved away as though of no consequence; but they agree in having the same seven sacraments, the Eucharistic Sacrifice, devotion to the other Saints, in honouring the Martyrs, esteeming monasticism, and so on. US Fundamentalism has none of these - and since these older Christianities do: on what principle do Fundamentalists accept the NT from these older Christianities, while rejecting many things - like the Sign of the Cross - that, like the NT, come to them on the basis of Tradition; the very Tradition which recognised that there could be, and were, 27 books of a purely Christian body of Scripture ?
                While it is true that we believe that all parts are to be "read," most of understand that many if not most parts of the epistles were correctives and responses to specific situations in the 1st-C, and only apply elsewhere and "elsewhen" to the extent that situations are comparable.
                That is no justification for regarding them as Holy Scripture. Nowhere is there an NT list of them, nor any other detail about them that I listed. If one is to go by what Scripture says, there is no reason - except Tradition - not to regard them as purely human, uninspired, writings.

                Jesus was content with the OT - and He never hinted that the books He approved would need to be supplemented by 27 more. He said “If they hear not Moses and the Prophets, they will not believe, no, not though one rise from the dead”. (St Luke did not have to be inspired to write that.) If those books were final for Him, they should be final for His followers. But Fundamentalists ignore what He said. He said, “This is My Blood of the New Testament...” (St Matthew 26.26.) He says what is the NT: not 27 books additional to those of which He had approved, but, His Blood. Yet Fundamentalists attend, not to that NT, spoken of by Christ Himself, but to a written NT about which He said nothing.
                Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 08-16-2018, 12:35 AM.

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                • #38
                  Since this is approximately instance number one billion of publicized Christian sexual misconduct, it's worth reflecting on what is wrong with Christian teachings / ideas that lead to these outcomes.

                  Here are some possibilities that come to mind:

                  1. An obsession with sex and sexual taboos. A lot of conservative Christianity in the public square and societal level seems to be about sex, who shouldn't be having it, how they shouldn't be having it, etc. Sex might be fun and interesting but it's not that interesting, and the way conservative Christians so focus on that issue within the public space makes them come across as sex-obsessed maniacs. Perhaps the way their religious teachings make them constantly think about these issues and focus on them actually make them sex-obsessed? It's like saying "don't think of an elephant" actually makes people think of an elephant. Thus the strength of the focus against sexual immorality actually results in more of it among the conservative Christian populace.

                  2. In a similar way, labeling something taboo can increase people's desire to do it, just because of simple human psychology. People can get guilty pleasure out of doing the forbidden.

                  3. Does the doctrine of "free forgiveness" make people less inclined to think there are serious consequences for wrongdoing and make them more inclined to do wrong?

                  4. Or, likewise, does the idea that "we are all sinners and sin 10 times before breakfast everyday" make people think that "I am sinning lots anyway, what does one more or one less sin matter?"

                  5. Or, is it a matter of trying to make people aspire to standards that are just too high, and thus generating inevitable spectacular failures? e.g. in particular the Roman Catholic church's goal of celibacy for priests just seems like an unreasonable unless the priests actually happen to be asexual people. So is the tendency of Christian teachings to try to make people aim impractically high, itself a flaw in the system that generates these failings?

                  6. Most churches tend to lack any sort of practical or sensible program for moral improvement of their flock. They assume either that (a) the Holy Spirit will totally do it; or (b) that enough Bible reading / sermons about the Bad things and the Good things will do it. There's not usually any practical measures taken to cause the congregation to actually increase in moral behavior.

                  7. Perhaps it's due to some of the logical failures of divine-command morality at the theoretical level. Even since Socrates pointed out the Euthrypo Dilemma, divine-command morality has been considered pretty much a joke by philosophers. Today most would just roll their eyes at it. Perhaps when so many conservative Christians buy into a moral system that really just doesn't make a whole lot of sense there is eventual cognitive dissonance and erratic and immoral behavior as a result?
                  "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    This is akin to the "VA" discussion in another thread. The situation is abhorrent, and the people responsible (as well as though who protected them) need to be held to account (and then some).
                    But in this case, the people who protect the guilty include the head of the organisation. Both JP II[1] and Benedict XVI[2] protected those guilty of abusing minors or covering up such abuse.

                    [1]Marcial Maciel, Bernard Law
                    [2]John Magee and other Irish priests
                    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                    MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                    MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                    seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      Yes, of this I am aware. But even THAT should refer to the clerical hierarchy of the church, most notably the top leadership. Even Luther wasn't talking about all of the people that make up the church. He was talking about the corruption that had invaded so much of the church hierarchy.
                      Nobody has ever said everyone in the Catholic Church is wrong, evil or corrupt. You are the one trying to make that claim so you can deny it, just like you did with the VA. You are burning a straw man.


                      In the case of the Catholic church in this case, it seems that at least part of the problem is the leadership's policy of sweeping it under the rug, allowing this kind of stuff to continue, instead of rooting it out and exposing it to the light. So not only do you have some "bad apples" in these priests, but in the leadership of the local and worldwide RCC helping to keep this buried.

                      John 3:20 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.
                      Last edited by Sparko; 08-16-2018, 07:44 AM.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                        The former is, AFAIK, the only Scripture that explicitly refers to Scripture as "God-breathed." So I cited it to establish that portion of the belief. The second places Paul's writings in that class.

                        Admittedly, I don't know of any passage that explicitly places any of the *other* NT writings in the classes of either "Scripture" or "God-breathed," including the Gospels.
                        The problem with your reasoning is that the first contextually refers to the OT; the NT is certainly not in view here. The second places some, but not all, of Paul's writings in the class of Scripture (the "tearful letter" referenced in 2 Corinthians is almost certainly not 1 Corinthians) - and in any case, Paul's writings do not make up the entirety of the NT.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                          Since this is approximately instance number one billion of publicized Christian sexual misconduct, it's worth reflecting on what is wrong with Christian teachings / ideas that lead to these outcomes.

                          Here are some possibilities that come to mind:

                          1. An obsession with sex and sexual taboos. A lot of conservative Christianity in the public square and societal level seems to be about sex, who shouldn't be having it, how they shouldn't be having it, etc. Sex might be fun and interesting but it's not that interesting, and the way conservative Christians so focus on that issue within the public space makes them come across as sex-obsessed maniacs. Perhaps the way their religious teachings make them constantly think about these issues and focus on them actually make them sex-obsessed? It's like saying "don't think of an elephant" actually makes people think of an elephant. Thus the strength of the focus against sexual immorality actually results in more of it among the conservative Christian populace.
                          Have you considered trying to prove this by, oh, comparing the rates of such immorality between Christian and other groups, or between "conservative" and "nonconservative" Christians? I'm guessing you haven't. You're confusing prominence of reporting with comparative scope of problem.
                          2. In a similar way, labeling something taboo can increase people's desire to do it, just because of simple human psychology. People can get guilty pleasure out of doing the forbidden.
                          Yes, but I rather suspect that sex doesn't require guilt to be pleasurable.
                          3. Does the doctrine of "free forgiveness" make people less inclined to think there are serious consequences for wrongdoing and make them more inclined to do wrong?

                          4. Or, likewise, does the idea that "we are all sinners and sin 10 times before breakfast everyday" make people think that "I am sinning lots anyway, what does one more or one less sin matter?"
                          These are post-hoc rationalizations.
                          5. Or, is it a matter of trying to make people aspire to standards that are just too high, and thus generating inevitable spectacular failures? e.g. in particular the Roman Catholic church's goal of celibacy for priests just seems like an unreasonable unless the priests actually happen to be asexual people. So is the tendency of Christian teachings to try to make people aim impractically high, itself a flaw in the system that generates these failings?
                          I think that, in this particular case, the requirement for celibate priests exacerbates the problem, but there are many sexual predators who haven't taken any such vow.
                          6. Most churches tend to lack any sort of practical or sensible program for moral improvement of their flock. They assume either that (a) the Holy Spirit will totally do it; or (b) that enough Bible reading / sermons about the Bad things and the Good things will do it. There's not usually any practical measures taken to cause the congregation to actually increase in moral behavior.
                          That's certainly not the case here, as confession is such a practical and sensible program for moral improvement (though why you sneer at sermons is beyond me; I've found them quite helpful in this area).
                          7. Perhaps it's due to some of the logical failures of divine-command morality at the theoretical level. Even since Socrates pointed out the Euthrypo Dilemma, divine-command morality has been considered pretty much a joke by philosophers. Today most would just roll their eyes at it. Perhaps when so many conservative Christians buy into a moral system that really just doesn't make a whole lot of sense there is eventual cognitive dissonance and erratic and immoral behavior as a result?
                          I rather suspect that you're unfairly lumping all philosophers here. I also suspect you're projecting your own cognitive dissonance on others. I don't at all mind trying to live up to an impossibly high standard; it means I will always have room for improvement.
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            Nobody has ever said everyone in the Catholic Church is wrong, evil or corrupt. You are the one trying to make that claim so you can deny it, just like you did with the VA. You are burning a straw man.
                            Er, yes, they have - even here! Everyone in a "cult" is necessarily wrong.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                              7. Perhaps it's due to some of the logical failures of divine-command morality at the theoretical level. Even since Socrates pointed out the Euthrypo Dilemma, divine-command morality has been considered pretty much a joke by philosophers.
                              That is stupid, even for you Star. Euthyphro does not apply to the Christian non-voluntaristic view of God, if you think otherwise then show which horn we are impaled on.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                In the case of the Catholic church in this case, it seems that at least part of the problem is the leadership's policy of sweeping it under the rug, allowing this kind of stuff to continue, instead of rooting it out and exposing it to the light.
                                This.

                                Far more of the cases that have been uncovered occurred after the church superiors were aware of the offenders than occurred before the church superiors knew. If reports of abuse were handled immediately or reported to secular authorities, rather than by being ignored or by moving the offenders to new dioceses, the scale of the problem would be a small fraction of what it is now.

                                Those church superiors who fail to report offenders and continue to allow them access no new victims should be charged with aiding and abetting.
                                Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                                MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                                MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                                seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

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