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  • #46
    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    To look at the current level of discourse under the Trump regime and even begin to compare it to what has gone before is, frankly, either an act of blindness, or demonstrates significant naivete. Yes, there have been polarizing figures and times before. Studies of congress show that this body was not even this polarized during the Civil War (based on the incidence of cross-party voting). The same is true of surveys of the electorate, which show 84% approval of Trump by Republicans and 7% approval by Democrats. And Trump's consistent and repeated personal behavior in office is unlike that of any president in living memory. We are in an age of the new McCarthyism, and this time it is not a senator leading it - it is the president of the country.
    I suppose it seems more pronounced to you because Trump is probably the highest profile conservative we've ever had willing to fight fire with fire, but as a white male Christian conservative, I can tell you that over past two two-decades, I and those like me have been subjected to more vicious and mean-spirited attacks from those in politics, the news media, and the entertainment industry than I could possibly count, so I honestly don't have much sympathy for thin-skinned liberals getting in a huff over the latest Trump Tweet.

    And to say that the country today is somehow more polarized than it was during the Civil War is just... I don't even know how to respond to such outrageous absurdity.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      I think the difference now is that the Internet puts everyone on the same playing field. Where previously we just heard about politicians reaming each other second hand, now they are right here in the mud with us on twitter and facebook and instagram interacting not only with each other but with us.
      That's probably part of it.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        I suppose it seems more pronounced to you because Trump is probably the highest profile conservative we've ever had willing to fight fire with fire, but as a white male Christian conservative, I can tell you that over past two two-decades, I and those like me have been subjected to more vicious and mean-spirited attacks from those in politics, the news media, and the entertainment industry than I could possibly count, so I honestly don't have much sympathy for thin-skinned liberals getting in a huff over the latest Trump Tweet.
        To that I can only say

        Are you seriously suggesting that the right has not been engaged in exactly the same thing for just as long? Have you ever watched/heard your media voices? Have you compared the lengths of the careers of people like Limbaugh, Coulter, Beck, Hannity, O'Reilly and others of their ilk to anyone comparable on the left? Seriously, MM? You're going to try to argue that "the left started it" and now you folks are just fighting fire with fire? Seriously?

        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        And to say that the country today is somehow more polarized than it was during the Civil War is just... I don't even know how to respond to such outrageous absurdity.
        Do the study yourself, MM. Even during the Civil War we did not see the breakdown in the voting record to the degree that we see it today. My most measurable means, the nation is more polarized today than it was then. We cannot compare polling data, of course, because it does not exist for that period. But we CAN examine the congressional record. There is no time in American history when the congressional voting record shows more polarization.
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          To that I can only say

          Are you seriously suggesting that the right has not been engaged in exactly the same thing for just as long? Have you ever watched/heard your media voices? Have you compared the lengths of the careers of people like Limbaugh, Coulter, Beck, Hannity, O'Reilly and others of their ilk to anyone comparable on the left? Seriously, MM? You're going to try to argue that "the left started it" and now you folks are just fighting fire with fire? Seriously?
          Yes, I am seriously suggesting that. The Limbaughs and Hannitys are the minority voice in the liberal dominated news and entertainment industry (not to mention our education system). Tell me, when was the last time you saw popular entertainment depict a Christian as smart, likable, and a competent defender of his faith? They're almost invariably presented as either nominal believers or religious wackos, or you get philosophical trash like The Life of Pi which presented the absurd notion that all religions are essentially the same and compatible with each other. It is often joked that white Christian males are the only unprotected demographic in America, but I'm not entirely certain that's really a joke. We've been the butt of liberal mockery for as long as I can remember, so get off your high horse and grow a thicker skin.

          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          Do the study yourself, MM. Even during the Civil War we did not see the breakdown in the voting record to the degree that we see it today. My most measurable means, the nation is more polarized today than it was then. We cannot compare polling data, of course, because it does not exist for that period. But we CAN examine the congressional record. There is no time in American history when the congressional voting record shows more polarization.
          carpe, your historical perspective is "interesting", to say the least. Our country was so polarized during the Civil War that it was literally two nations at war with each other! Those still in Washington at the time had the interest of maintaining the Union, so of course you are going to see a lot of agreement among Congressmen, but that's mostly because those who didn't agree had headed south to join President Jefferson Davis and the Confederate States of America. It's impossible for a country to be any more divided than we were between 1863 and 1865.

          Now if our present Congress had any interest in working together under Trump, they could, but Democrats on day one openly declared that they were going to hinder and obstruct our duly elected President every step of the way. You can't blame Trump for that.
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            Yes, I am seriously suggesting that. The Limbaughs and Hannitys are the minority voice in the liberal dominated news and entertainment industry (not to mention our education system).
            And the left originally had nothing compared to the Limbaughs and Hannitys of the world. But then it began to be clear that their style of reporting got eyeballs and adherents and a devoted following, because they whipped up a frenzy and painted the left in "evil" terms. When their voices began to proliferate, (predictably) comparable voices on the left began to arise. Just do a side-by-side comparison of the career lengths of the most right and left voices. It becomes clear immediately where that kind of polemic started.

            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            Tell me, when was the last time you saw popular entertainment depict a Christian as smart, likable, and a competent defender of his faith?
            Pretty regularly, actually. There have been good ministers in most of the television programming I have seen. There have also been some depicted as whack jobs. There have been good firefighters, and some depicted as whack jobs. The same is true of police, doctors, teachers, and pretty much every profession I see. The consistently poorly depicted are Muslims, Middle-Easterns in general, Russians (though less so these days).

            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            They're almost invariably presented as either nominal believers or religious wackos, or you get philosophical trash like The Life of Pi which presented the absurd notion that all religions are essentially the same and compatible with each other. It is often joked that white Christian males are the only unprotected demographic in America, but I'm not entirely certain that's really a joke. We've been the butt of liberal mockery for as long as I can remember, so get off your high horse and grow a thicker skin.
            For someone who likes to call liberals, thin-skinned, you're sounding a lot like a thin-skinned conservative..

            And you are in no position to claim the high ground, MM. You are, pretty much consistently, one of the mockers and name callers. You can't even resist replacing people's names with school-yard taunts. The emotional and interpersonal maturity displayed is...well...lacking.

            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            carpe, your historical perspective is "interesting", to say the least. Our country was so polarized during the Civil War that it was literally two nations at war with each other! Those still in Washington at the time had the interest of maintaining the Union, so of course you are going to see a lot of agreement among Congressmen, but that's mostly because those who didn't agree had headed south to join President Jefferson Davis and the Confederate States of America. It's impossible for a country to be any more divided than we were between 1863 and 1865.
            If you reread my posts, you will note I was talking about the congressional voting record. I noted we lack any polls to measure public sentiment. And the civil war partitioned us by state, not purely by party. So if you look at the congressional voting record, including the period between 1863 and 1865, but also before an after that period, when we were (presumably) still one nation (or one nation again) attempting to find common ground. That period of time was the period of time when there were the least cross-over votes in congress - until the modern age. The numbers began to shift with Clinton, they held reasonably steady with Bush, perhaps even gained a bit of ground. Then they slipped badly with Obama and are now at their nadir, at levels BELOW those seen before and after the civil war. As measured by the voting record, our government has NEVER been this polarized.

            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            Now if our present Congress had any interest in working together under Trump, they could, but Democrats on day one openly declared that they were going to hinder and obstruct our duly elected President every step of the way. You can't blame Trump for that.
            Oh for pity's sake, and the Republican congress did exactly the same thing under Obama, accusing him of being the one refusing to cooperate at every step. And now the Democrats are talking a page out of the Republican playbook, and you're complaining? IMO, both parties are acting like children - mostly because we chose them to be children, we the people are stomping our feet and screaming "my way or the highway" and electing people who will refuse to work with the other side. When "we the people" stop acting like children, perhaps we'll elect representatives who do not act like children. Until then, we get what we vote for.

            Hopefully, America has learned its lesson with this president, and we will never elect such a vulgar, poorly qualified, misanthrope again. But I have to admit my confidence is not very high.
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • #51
              I honestly don't feel like wading through your Gish Gallop response. I will only note that Rush Limbaugh was a response to the fact that liberals had a monopoly on the flow of news and information for decades, and he was the first widely known alternative voice. Even today it's the liberal voices that dominate our information and entertainment industries.

              To pretend that conservatives in general and Christians in particular have gotten any kind of fair treatment from the liberal media and entertainment machine is naive, and I can only assume you think otherwise because the unsavory perspective being presented is one you happen to agree with. I honestly can not remember the last time a mainstream television show or movie actually treated a Christian character with any kind of sympathy. Of course now that liberals are receiving much the same treatment from high profile conservatives, you cry foul. To that I say, suck it up and stop your crying.

              Finally, ignoring the fact that we were literally two nations at war during the 1860s to promote your absurd idea that we're somehow more divided now than ever before is, quite frankly, stupid and self-serving. Tell me, were you whining about Obama's divisive rhetoric after his first election win? His "I won, so sit down and shut up" attitude towards Congressional Republicans? The fact that Obamacare was unceremoniously shoved down our throats without a single Republican vote? Did you complain about any of that? Of course you didn't, because you're a myopic liberal hypocrite who only tries to claim the moral high ground when it's your own ox getting gored.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                I honestly don't feel like wading through your Gish Gallop response. I will only note that Rush Limbaugh was a response to the fact that liberals had a monopoly on the flow of news and information for decades, and he was the first widely known alternative voice. Even today it's the liberal voices that dominate our information and entertainment industries.

                To pretend that conservatives in general and Christians in particular have gotten any kind of fair treatment from the liberal media and entertainment machine is naive, and I can only assume you think otherwise because the unsavory perspective being presented is one you happen to agree with. I honestly can not remember the last time a mainstream television show or movie actually treated a Christian character with any kind of sympathy. Of course now that liberals are receiving much the same treatment from high profile conservatives, you cry foul. To that I say, suck it up and stop your crying.
                No one is crying, MM, though I did detect a bit of thin-skinned response in your last post (as I noted). There is no question that so-called mainstream media lean left to some degree. The right has blown that all out of proportion at the behest of voices like Limbaugh and the other hate-speakers of the right. Predictably, we now have hate-speakers on the left. MLK predicted this effect (see my signature). And the rest of your post sounds a lot like "crying," my friend. "It's not fair" is the cry of a toddler - and (of course) our president.

                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                Finally, ignoring the fact that we were literally two nations at war during the 1860s to promote your absurd idea that we're somehow more divided now than ever before is, quite frankly, stupid and self-serving. Tell me, were you whining about Obama's divisive rhetoric after his first election win? His "I won, so sit down and shut up" attitude towards Congressional Republicans? The fact that Obamacare was unceremoniously shoved down our throats without a single Republican vote? Did you complain about any of that? Of course you didn't, because you're a myopic liberal hypocrite who only tries to claim the moral high ground when it's your own ox getting gored.
                I have little response to this, since I have ignored nothing. I made a factual statement about a matter of record. If you'd like to dispute it, you have a simple way to do so: go through the congressional record and show me that the voting was MORE polarized in that time period than it is today. If you cannot do that, well, you're really just pontificating without facts. If it helps, I started here.
                Last edited by carpedm9587; 08-21-2018, 11:55 AM.
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  No one is crying...
                  http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post568720



                  Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  "It's not fair" is the cry of a toddler...
                  I never said anything about "fairness".
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    I'm not sure when calling out juvenile behavior became "crying," but if that's your definition...

                    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    I never said anything about "fairness".
                    To pretend that conservatives in general and Christians in particular have gotten any kind of fair treatment from the liberal media and entertainment machine is naive...
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      To that I can only say

                      Are you seriously suggesting that the right has not been engaged in exactly the same thing for just as long? Have you ever watched/heard your media voices? Have you compared the lengths of the careers of people like Limbaugh, Coulter, Beck, Hannity, O'Reilly and others of their ilk to anyone comparable on the left? Seriously, MM? You're going to try to argue that "the left started it" and now you folks are just fighting fire with fire? Seriously?



                      Do the study yourself, MM. Even during the Civil War we did not see the breakdown in the voting record to the degree that we see it today. My most measurable means, the nation is more polarized today than it was then. We cannot compare polling data, of course, because it does not exist for that period. But we CAN examine the congressional record. There is no time in American history when the congressional voting record shows more polarization.
                      Umm everyone that disagreed had fled the the Confederate States by the time of the Civil War. The 1850’s would be a much better time period of comparison and as far as I’m aware, nobody has lead an out war against another faction yet. Have they?
                      "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                      GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        I'm not sure when calling out juvenile behavior became "crying," but if that's your definition...
                        Do you really think we're fooled by your passive aggressive diatribes? It's not just a self-aware act? Wow...

                        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        To pretend that conservatives in general and Christians in particular have gotten any kind of fair treatment from the liberal media and entertainment machine is naive...
                        Yeah. ok, so I used the word "fair", but I didn't use it in the manner that you described.
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                          Umm everyone that disagreed had fled the the Confederate States by the time of the Civil War.
                          First, I have not made any claims about the popular view because we lack the kind of polling that would be necessary to make a comparison to modern polling data. So anything said about the general population would be pure speculation. That being said, I am very curious about your sources for this claim of yours. Can you provide them, please?

                          Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                          The 1850’s would be a much better time period of comparison and as far as I’m aware, nobody has lead an out war against another faction yet. Have they?
                          Since my claim was specifically about the congressional voting record, there really is only one way to address the claim: show that the congressional voting record for the specified time period (let's say 3-4 years before the civil war to 3-4 years after) was NOT less polarized than it is today. Since my claim is based on the congressional record itself, I don't see how that can be done.
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            Do you really think we're fooled by your passive aggressive diatribes? It's not just a self-aware act? Wow...
                            Your opinion is duly noted...

                            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            Yeah. ok, so I used the word "fair", but I didn't use it in the manner that you described.
                            I am not aware of there being many differnet uses of the word. Your sentence translates to: Christians (and you are one of them, based on your posts) are not fairly treated by the liberal media." If it means something else, I have no idea what that would be. Perhaps you can explain?

                            Meanwhile, I find "it's not fair" (and all it's variants) to be a kind of toddler-to-adolescent whining. Trump does it a lot. It has appeared at least once in every stump speech and extended address I have heard him make.
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                              I am not aware of there being many differnet uses of the word. Your sentence translates to: Christians (and you are one of them, based on your posts) are not fairly treated by the liberal media." If it means something else, I have no idea what that would be. Perhaps you can explain?

                              Meanwhile, I find "it's not fair" (and all it's variants) to be a kind of toddler-to-adolescent whining. Trump does it a lot. It has appeared at least once in every stump speech and extended address I have heard him make.
                              Making the factual statement that "This group is not given fair treatment by that group" can not be reasonably construed as immaturely stamping one's foot and crying, "It's not fair!" So it is fair of me to say that I used the word "fair", but I didn't use it the way you described.

                              The irony, of course, is that you're the one crying about the equitable treatment that liberals are now receiving at the hands of Trump.
                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                                Making the factual statement that "This group is not given fair treatment by that group" can not be reasonably construed as immaturely stamping one's foot and crying, "It's not fair!" So it is fair of me to say that I used the word "fair", but I didn't use it the way you described.
                                Since you are a member of "that group" you are basically complaining that you are not being treated fairly. Hence...whining...

                                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                                The irony, of course, is that you're the one crying about the equitable treatment that liberals are now receiving at the hands of Trump.
                                Actually, I said nothing about "equitable treatment" or Trump's dealings. My complaints about Trump have been based on his moral ineptitude and childishness. If you think otherwise, I invite you to link the post where I made any complaint that even begins to approximate this.
                                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                                Comment

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