Colorado After Christian Baker - Again!

[oxmixmudd]

It's both Tassman. Some want Christians to abandon their beliefs and celebrate them and when they don't they want to punish them. Others just want to be left alone to live their lives in peace.

It's the former that are bringing this particular attempt against this baker. And they won't stop. He has been targetted and is the target of as much or more hate as what they are ostensibly against.

In this case, the hate only flows in one direction.


And even more so in the second round. Lets hope they are robustly dressed down for it and all involved can get back to some sense of normalcy. The gay activists need to learn they can't make people abondon deeply help religious convictions nor are they allowed to punish people who believe what they are doing is wrong. They need to learn to live and let live. go on with their lives. Do what they want. Enjoy their freedom to be what they want to be. I am quite sure if they do they will never hear from or interact with Jack again. He is not seeking out anyone to punish or otherwise offend. He just wants to apply his artwork to his cake making. And I see no reason he is obligated by anyone one in terms of what the specific art is that he puts on his cakes.

If he was smart though, he'd stop calling them wedding cakes and start calling them specialty cakes for special occasions with a disclaimer that he does not create cakes to celebrate occasions that violate his religious moral teaching. That way each occasion is unique and he will create a cake for any customer provided the special occasion itself is not an event that violates his morals.

Jim

[firstfloor]

The outcome of cases like this in other circumstances must await further elaboration in the courts, all in the context of recognizing that these disputes must be resolved with tolerance, without undue disrespect to sincere religious beliefs, and without subjecting gay persons to indignities when they seek goods and services in an open market.

- Justice Anthony Kennedy

[Sparko]

- Justice Anthony Kennedy

When you post a quote, give a reference.

ETA which you just did as I was posting! Thanks.

[Leonhard]

Disagreement is not being allowed. I've posted you several cases where gay t-shirt makers have agreed that a Christian t-shirt maker shouldn't be forced to print Pride parade t-shirts (which some minority of lgbtq was trying to bate them with). Likewise there's a plethora of other cases where someone has objected to a message. The people who are after this baker, or the florists, etc, are people who want to get these people in legal trouble.

This may be the case in this particular instance and why the Supreme Court ruled as it did in this one-off ruling.

Its very transparently the case here. You can read about it yourself from the briefs. The baker was challenged, again, right after he got out of court, by a person who'd requested all sorts of cakes like that.

We'll see if the Supreme Court becomes involved again. I have a hoping for a stronger ruling in favor of freedom. The law shouldn't become a tool to bully people with. There are no lack of bakeries for gay people. This is all about some small minority of lgbtq members wanting a legal billy club to hit Christians over the head with.

[Tassman]

Disagreement is not being allowed. I've posted you several cases where gay t-shirt makers have agreed that a Christian t-shirt maker shouldn't be forced to print Pride parade t-shirts (which some minority of lgbtq was trying to bate them with). Likewise there's a plethora of other cases where someone has objected to a message. The people who are after this baker, or the florists, etc, are people who want to get these people in legal trouble.

Its very transparently the case here. You can read about it yourself from the briefs. The baker was challenged, again, right after he got out of court, by a person who'd requested all sorts of cakes like that.

Yes I agree in this particular instance and this is why the Supreme Court ruled as it did in this one-off ruling. As Justice Kennedy wrote: while Colorado law

We'll see if the Supreme Court becomes involved again. I have a hoping for a stronger ruling in favor of freedom.

The law shouldn't become a tool to bully people with. There are no lack of bakeries for gay people. This is all about some small minority of lgbtq members wanting a legal billy club to hit Christians over the head with.

This is just Christian paranoia. Of course the law shouldn't become a tool to bully people with, but bullying can work both ways.

[oxmixmudd]

Tassman, how is trying to force a person to create art that expresses ideas contrary to their conscience not bullying? You never address that. You always return to the idea the artist is 'discriminating' against gay people.

What artist in any of history was forced to create that which is against their conscience where it was not considered tyranny or oppression? I know you don't want to consider that or think about it - but that is what you and these cases represent. Leave the man be.

Gay people want to be allowed the freedom to be who they are. Well, they've gotten that in spades. So now it is time for Gay people to let Christians that represent no harm to them the freedom to be who they are as well. He has hurt no-one. He has only said he can't create art that violates his conscience. There is nothing unreasonable about that. Period. They can buy their cake with some standard message as a commodity almost anywhere or they can go to some other artistic cake creator and get their cake made as they would like it made.

Believe me, the art community in Colorado will have no shortage of people willing to create their cake.


Jim

[Tassman]

Tassman, how is trying to force a person to create art that expresses ideas contrary to their conscience not bullying? You never address that. You always return to the idea the artist is 'discriminating' against gay people.

What artist in any of history was forced to create that which is against their conscience where it was not considered tyranny or oppression? I know you don't want to consider that or think about it - but that is what you and these cases represent. Leave the man be.

Gay people want to be allowed the freedom to be who they are. Well, they've gotten that in spades. So now it is time for Gay people to let Christians that represent no harm to them the freedom to be who they are as well. He has hurt no-one. He has only said he can't create art that violates his conscience. There is nothing unreasonable about that. Period. They can buy their cake with some standard message as a commodity almost anywhere or they can go to some other artistic cake creator and get their cake made as they would like it made.

Believe me, the art community in Colorado will have no shortage of people willing to create their cake.

I think this has been covered fairly extensively in these threads. I don't accept the "cake equals art" argument at all. Very few wedding cakes constitute high art. Both anti-gay Evangelical bakers AND gay couples who wish to marry are entitled to the freedom to be who they are. This will not be achieved if one person's civil rights override those of another's civil rights. It works both ways...neither side is entitled to special treatment.

[Leonhard]

high art

This is a nonsense qualifier as has already been pointed out to you. Its a custom work of art, whether you consider 'high' or not.

Both anti-gay Evangelical bakers AND gay couples who wish to marry are entitled to the freedom to be who they are. This will not be achieved if one person's civil rights override those of another's civil rights.

Actually the Supreme Court in the US has been pretty clear that Civil Rights should not erode Freedom of Speech. Meaning one principle here is higher than the other.

[oxmixmudd]

I think this has been covered fairly extensively in these threads. I don't accept the "cake equals art" argument at all. Very few wedding cakes constitute high art. Both anti-gay Evangelical bakers AND gay couples who wish to marry are entitled to the freedom to be who they are. This will not be achieved if one person's civil rights override those of another's civil rights. It works both ways...neither side is entitled to special treatment.

It doesn't have to be high art. And if you have looked at the sorts of cakes this man creates and how he creates them, it is clear that this is NOT a normal wedding cake. This is him applying his painting and drawing skill to a canvas on a cake. In doing so he creates a unique expression of the couples unique story. There is no legitimate reason anywhere that can justify forcing an artist tell a story visually, artistically, if they are vigorously opposed to it.

So while he is clearly required to sell the canvas to anyone, he is NOT required to paint it, to put a picture on it that expresses their story if he is opposed to that story.

So yes - he has to sell them A cake. A blank cake that they can do whatever they want to with.

But NO - he does not have to paint it with an image that violates his conscience. You can't force the man to put his art on that cake against his conscience and moral convictions. The whole idea that you can come into my studio and tell me that I must paint any image you want regardless of what I believe is right is absolutely repugnant, and absolutely contrary to the 1st amendment.

And this also shows why you and others are without conscience and really, whether you realize it or not, in hypocritical violation of your own moral statements, using the conflation of these two elements (the baking and the painting) to go from persecution and abuse of gay people by people of religious faith, which is absolutely wrong, to the persecution and abuse of people of religious faith by gay people which is just as wrong. And it is also, sorry to say, absolutely hypocritical. It would be no different morally than a Jewish holocaust survivor turning around and setting up concentration camps for people of German descent.

Jim

[Sparko]

I think this has been covered fairly extensively in these threads. I don't accept the "cake equals art" argument at all. Very few wedding cakes constitute high art. Both anti-gay Evangelical bakers AND gay couples who wish to marry are entitled to the freedom to be who they are. This will not be achieved if one person's civil rights override those of another's civil rights. It works both ways...neither side is entitled to special treatment.

Who are you to determine what is art or not? The Supreme court said it was.


Have you seen art by someone like Jackson Pollock? One if his paintings looks like a drop cloth left over from a painting party of baboons. And they sell for millions.

[seer]

Have you seen art by someone like Jackson Pollock?

I never got that kind of art. I have friends who think that it is just great...

[Sparko]

I never got that kind of art. I have friends who think that it is just great...

I don't care for it either, but it is art. If a drop cloth covered in paint drippings is art, so is a wedding cake.

[seer]

I don't care for it either, but it is art. If a drop cloth covered in paint drippings is art, so is a wedding cake.

Is this a where's Waldo thing?

[Sparko]

Is this a where's Waldo thing?

Godzilla ate a hotdog with ketchup and mustard, and then sneezed.

[Sparko]

I would like Tassman to define "art" for us.