So Easy To Be An Atheist!

[rogue06]

I would love for there to be an afterlife. That sounds like a vastly easier thing to believe in. So easy to be religious.

And change your behavior from being a moral reprobate?

[carpedm9587]

OK, so basing your value, or human value, on assertion, and nothing more, is good enough for you. I will remember that going forward.

It's "good enough" for all of us, Seer. You assess value, I assess value. Rogue assesses value. Every sentient being assesses value. What is valuable to one may or may not be valuable to another. I value my life. You may not give a fig about my life and find no value in it. I value a fine single malt scotch (though nowhere near as much as I value life). You may not give a fig about and not value single malt scotch.

If your god exists and is sentient, then this god too assesses value. I have the impression you believe you are valueless unless this god gives you value. That means that everything that is "valuable" about you comes from outside yourself. And if this god doesn't exist, then you have rendered yourself valueless (at least to yourself). There's something kind of sad about that.

[JimL]

Jim oblivion is not a difficult thing to face, you wouldn't know anything. Now hell - that would be difficult to face...

Well, of course, if you don't exist, then you don't exist, what's difficult is facing the fact of your future oblivion now, while you exist. Heaven and Hell, for which, like god, there is no evidence of, we know is just a silly fairy tale told to immature children in order to keep them in line.

[seer]

Heaven and Hell, for which, like god, there is no evidence of, we know is just a silly fairy tale told to immature children in order to keep them in line.

You hope...

[seer]

If your god exists and is sentient, then this god too assesses value. I have the impression you believe you are valueless unless this god gives you value. That means that everything that is "valuable" about you comes from outside yourself. And if this god doesn't exist, then you have rendered yourself valueless (at least to yourself). There's something kind of sad about that.

It seems to me that if something is created for a purpose it would be of more value than something haphazardly formed for no purpose. It also seems to me that if an all knowing, immutably good and eternal Creator values something that that value would have more weight and certainty than a value based on ignorant and fickle considerations.

[carpedm9587]

It seems to me that if something is created for a purpose it would be of more value than something haphazardly formed for no purpose.

I see no reason to assume this is true. "Purpose" is derived by a purposer. A thing may have one purpose to one person and another to another person, and yet another to the person that created the "thing." I use the hammer example all the time. It was created to pound and pry nails. That is what the "designer" intended and to the designer, that is it's purpose. I have a friend of mine who uses a small hammer as a paper weight. To him, that is it's purpose. I have a hammer that is exactly long enough to position electrical boxes off the floor. When I use it that way, that is the purpose of the hammer to me. No one's purpose is any greater or lesser than anyone else's by any measure I can imagine.

As for "haphazard," nature is hardly "haphazard." It operates according to describable principles, and can even be modeled and predicted (to some degree). Random things are not subject to prediction, AFAIK.

It also seems to me that if an all knowing, immutably good and eternal Creator values something that that value would have more weight and certainty than a value based on ignorant and fickle considerations.

I'm sorry you consider your considerations "weak and fickle." That must be a horrible way to go through life. It is, frankly, one of the many reasons I left theisms. Most of them (but not all) preach this mantra of how horrible and useless and ugly we are (without a god, of course). I found such negativity an unacceptable way to live.

[Tassman]

It seems to me that if something is created for a purpose it would be of more value than something haphazardly formed for no purpose.

Therefore, because this “seems” to you to be the case, that therefore it “must” be the case. Do you not see the unwarranted leap of logic here?

It also seems to me that if an all knowing, immutably good and eternal Creator values something that that value would have more weight and certainty than a value based on ignorant and fickle considerations.

There’s not a shred of substantive evidence to support these musings of yours.

[Starlight]

And change your behavior from being a moral reprobate?

My behavior now is little different to what it was when I was a Christian. I would not want to change to being a moral reprobate like you are.

[rogue06]

My behavior now is little different to what it was when I was a Christian. I would not want to change to being a moral reprobate like you are.

Ironic coming from someone who

• goes apoplectic if a whale gets killed but cavalierly endorses the slaughter of human babies several months after they've been born.
• supports giving pedophiles kiddy porn.
• advocates for physical violence against those who don't share his far left political views (since anyone who doesn't is by definition a Nazi).
• promotes co-ed nudity in elementary schools.

[Starlight]

Ironic coming from someone who

• goes apoplectic if a whale gets killed but cavalierly endorses the slaughter of human babies several months after they've been born.
• supports giving pedophiles kiddy porn.
• advocates for physical violence against those who don't share his far left political views (since anyone who doesn't is by definition a Nazi).
• promotes co-ed nudity in elementary schools.

Looks like TWeb's biggest liar is at it again (as my misquoted statement in your sig was noting). No wonder you like Trump, your approach to the truth is as bad as his. Well done on re-proving your own moral failings as if more proof were required.

[seer]

I see no reason to assume this is true. "Purpose" is derived by a purposer. A thing may have one purpose to one person and another to another person, and yet another to the person that created the "thing." I use the hammer example all the time. It was created to pound and pry nails. That is what the "designer" intended and to the designer, that is it's purpose. I have a friend of mine who uses a small hammer as a paper weight. To him, that is it's purpose. I have a hammer that is exactly long enough to position electrical boxes off the floor. When I use it that way, that is the purpose of the hammer to me. No one's purpose is any greater or lesser than anyone else's by any measure I can imagine.

And a car is not a rocket ship, they were designed for different purposes with no possible crossover. And a feather makes a terrible paperweight. The point is humans are not ultimately purposelessness, in your world they are. And our purpose and God's intention endow us with value and moral direction that can not be found otherwise.

As for "haphazard," nature is hardly "haphazard." It operates according to describable principles, and can even be modeled and predicted (to some degree). Random things are not subject to prediction, AFAIK.

Really? You could have predicted 15 million years the rise of the human race? Of course not.

I'm sorry you consider your considerations "weak and fickle." That must be a horrible way to go through life. It is, frankly, one of the many reasons I left theisms. Most of them (but not all) preach this mantra of how horrible and useless and ugly we are (without a god, of course). I found such negativity an unacceptable way to live.

We are all fickle Carp, and ignorant of future consequences of our choices and acts. Unless you have risen above the common human condition. And yes without God we are dust, transient creatures with no ultimate purpose, value, or hope.

[carpedm9587]

And a car is not a rocket ship, they were designed for different purposes with no possible crossover. And a feather makes a terrible paperweight.

That a thing is not suitable for specific purposes does not mean it is not suitable for multiple purposes, and that purpose can change from context to context and person to person.

The point is humans are not ultimately purposelessness, in your world they are.

Once again, you seem to want to add "eternally" or "absolutely" to the definition of purpose. Look is up, you won't find it anywhere. Purpose is still purpose, even if it is not eternal/absolute.

And our purpose and God's intention endow us with value and moral direction that can not be found otherwise.

An assertion you cannot substantiate, because you cannot substantiate that this god even exists.

Really? You could have predicted 15 million years the rise of the human race? Of course not.

You missed the "to some degree." You do tend to go to extremes in discussions. At one time we could barely predict weather 5 minutes out. Now we can get a reasonable prediction to a couple of days. Nature works according to describable principles. It is not "random" or "haphazard." It IS complex with many variables, making it easy to predict some things (the ball rolling down th hill will end up in the lake) and difficult to predict others (the course of human evolution 15 million years from now).

We are all fickle Carp, and ignorant of future consequences of our choices and acts. Unless you have risen above the common human condition. And yes without God we are dust, transient creatures with no ultimate purpose, value, or hope.

If you need this illusion of "ultimate purpose" Seer, then by all means stick with your beliefs. I prefer to deal with what IS, not what I WANT it to be. "Ultimate purpose" is unnecessary. I am perfectly fine with "temporal purpose." After all, once I am dead, it will not make one iota of difference. Until then, it matters because I have a mind and the ability to reason. Your error is the assumption that purpose has to be "eternal" or "ultimate" or "absolute" to be real. It doesn't. It also does not have to be rendered externally. I have a mind. I can choose a purpose. So long as I choose something to be my purpose, that is what it will be.

But, out of curiosity, what do you think this god of yours has as a "purpose" for you? In other words, to your god, what is your ultimate purpose, as you understand it?

[firstfloor]

Unless you have risen above the common human condition. And yes without God we are dust, transient creatures with no ultimate purpose, value, or hope.

I have noticed that this is one of your favourite themes, seer. It occurred to me on the way home from work today that this world is big enough to accommodate anything you should wish to contribute to it; it would swallow up the very best or worst thing you could do with stunning indifference. But we also know, because we can see the changes that humans have brought about that the things we do over a lifetime or so, either individually or in groups, make a difference. Understanding your significance is really about understanding your own scale and the scale of this island earth. The bigger picture and the ultimate fate of things is not a question that you should be diverted by precisely because you are only 2m tall and your talents are pitiful. It is the same for everyone.

Your thoughts about God are dreamlike and dislocate you from your personal reality and it is wasteful because you, like everyone else, cannot rise above the common human condition. Know thyself. Your most noble thoughts, prayers and actions are inescapably human.

[Tassman]

Unless you have risen above the common human condition. And yes without God we are dust, transient creatures with no ultimate purpose, value, or hope.

Yes "we are dust and transient creatures", as are all living things. But if you can only find "purpose, value, or hope" via an invisible fantasy figure, then you are a truly tragic person. I feel sorry for you and your futile delusions.

[seer]

That a thing is not suitable for specific purposes does not mean it is not suitable for multiple purposes, and that purpose can change from context to context and person to person.

Right we can pervert our God designed purpose, or any designed purpose. The teleology for human sexuality is for intimacy between a man and a woman, and procreation. But we can choose to use our sexual prowess to bed a sheep.

Once again, you seem to want to add "eternally" or "absolutely" to the definition of purpose. Look is up, you won't find it anywhere. Purpose is still purpose, even if it is not eternal/absolute.

So you agree that we are ultimately purposeless.

An assertion you cannot substantiate, because you cannot substantiate that this god even exists.

You mean like your unsubstantiated assertion that you have value?

You missed the "to some degree." You do tend to go to extremes in discussions. At one time we could barely predict weather 5 minutes out. Now we can get a reasonable prediction to a couple of days. Nature works according to describable principles. It is not "random" or "haphazard." It IS complex with many variables, making it easy to predict some things (the ball rolling down th hill will end up in the lake) and difficult to predict others (the course of human evolution 15 million years from now).

Let me put it this way, did human being HAVE to develop as they did, or even SURVIVE as a species in the first place?

If you need this illusion of "ultimate purpose" Seer, then by all means stick with your beliefs. I prefer to deal with what IS, not what I WANT it to be. "Ultimate purpose" is unnecessary. I am perfectly fine with "temporal purpose." After all, once I am dead, it will not make one iota of difference. Until then, it matters because I have a mind and the ability to reason. Your error is the assumption that purpose has to be "eternal" or "ultimate" or "absolute" to be real. It doesn't. It also does not have to be rendered externally. I have a mind. I can choose a purpose. So long as I choose something to be my purpose, that is what it will be.

You mean like your illusion of value?

But, out of curiosity, what do you think this god of yours has as a "purpose" for you? In other words, to your god, what is your ultimate purpose, as you understand it?

To love and know God and to love our fellow man.