Originally posted by Starlight
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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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So Easy To Be An Atheist!
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I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by seer View PostOK, so basing your value, or human value, on assertion, and nothing more, is good enough for you. I will remember that going forward.
If your god exists and is sentient, then this god too assesses value. I have the impression you believe you are valueless unless this god gives you value. That means that everything that is "valuable" about you comes from outside yourself. And if this god doesn't exist, then you have rendered yourself valueless (at least to yourself). There's something kind of sad about that.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostJim oblivion is not a difficult thing to face, you wouldn't know anything. Now hell - that would be difficult to face...
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Originally posted by JimL View PostHeaven and Hell, for which, like god, there is no evidence of, we know is just a silly fairy tale told to immature children in order to keep them in line.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostIf your god exists and is sentient, then this god too assesses value. I have the impression you believe you are valueless unless this god gives you value. That means that everything that is "valuable" about you comes from outside yourself. And if this god doesn't exist, then you have rendered yourself valueless (at least to yourself). There's something kind of sad about that.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostIt seems to me that if something is created for a purpose it would be of more value than something haphazardly formed for no purpose.
As for "haphazard," nature is hardly "haphazard." It operates according to describable principles, and can even be modeled and predicted (to some degree). Random things are not subject to prediction, AFAIK.
Originally posted by seer View PostIt also seems to me that if an all knowing, immutably good and eternal Creator values something that that value would have more weight and certainty than a value based on ignorant and fickle considerations.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostIt seems to me that if something is created for a purpose it would be of more value than something haphazardly formed for no purpose.
It also seems to me that if an all knowing, immutably good and eternal Creator values something that that value would have more weight and certainty than a value based on ignorant and fickle considerations.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostAnd change your behavior from being a moral reprobate?"I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostMy behavior now is little different to what it was when I was a Christian. I would not want to change to being a moral reprobate like you are.
- goes apoplectic if a whale gets killed but cavalierly endorses the slaughter of human babies several months after they've been born.
- supports giving pedophiles kiddy porn.
- advocates for physical violence against those who don't share his far left political views (since anyone who doesn't is by definition a Nazi).
- promotes co-ed nudity in elementary schools.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostIronic coming from someone who
- goes apoplectic if a whale gets killed but cavalierly endorses the slaughter of human babies several months after they've been born.
- supports giving pedophiles kiddy porn.
- advocates for physical violence against those who don't share his far left political views (since anyone who doesn't is by definition a Nazi).
- promotes co-ed nudity in elementary schools.
"I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI see no reason to assume this is true. "Purpose" is derived by a purposer. A thing may have one purpose to one person and another to another person, and yet another to the person that created the "thing." I use the hammer example all the time. It was created to pound and pry nails. That is what the "designer" intended and to the designer, that is it's purpose. I have a friend of mine who uses a small hammer as a paper weight. To him, that is it's purpose. I have a hammer that is exactly long enough to position electrical boxes off the floor. When I use it that way, that is the purpose of the hammer to me. No one's purpose is any greater or lesser than anyone else's by any measure I can imagine.
As for "haphazard," nature is hardly "haphazard." It operates according to describable principles, and can even be modeled and predicted (to some degree). Random things are not subject to prediction, AFAIK.
I'm sorry you consider your considerations "weak and fickle." That must be a horrible way to go through life. It is, frankly, one of the many reasons I left theisms. Most of them (but not all) preach this mantra of how horrible and useless and ugly we are (without a god, of course). I found such negativity an unacceptable way to live.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostAnd a car is not a rocket ship, they were designed for different purposes with no possible crossover. And a feather makes a terrible paperweight.
Originally posted by seer View PostThe point is humans are not ultimately purposelessness, in your world they are.
Originally posted by seer View PostAnd our purpose and God's intention endow us with value and moral direction that can not be found otherwise.
Originally posted by seer View PostReally? You could have predicted 15 million years the rise of the human race? Of course not.
Originally posted by seer View PostWe are all fickle Carp, and ignorant of future consequences of our choices and acts. Unless you have risen above the common human condition. And yes without God we are dust, transient creatures with no ultimate purpose, value, or hope.
But, out of curiosity, what do you think this god of yours has as a "purpose" for you? In other words, to your god, what is your ultimate purpose, as you understand it?Last edited by carpedm9587; 09-11-2018, 03:40 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
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Originally posted by seer View PostUnless you have risen above the common human condition. And yes without God we are dust, transient creatures with no ultimate purpose, value, or hope.
Your thoughts about God are dreamlike and dislocate you from your personal reality and it is wasteful because you, like everyone else, cannot rise above the common human condition. Know thyself. Your most noble thoughts, prayers and actions are inescapably human.“I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
“And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
“not all there” - you know who you are
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Originally posted by seer View PostUnless you have risen above the common human condition. And yes without God we are dust, transient creatures with no ultimate purpose, value, or hope.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThat a thing is not suitable for specific purposes does not mean it is not suitable for multiple purposes, and that purpose can change from context to context and person to person.
Once again, you seem to want to add "eternally" or "absolutely" to the definition of purpose. Look is up, you won't find it anywhere. Purpose is still purpose, even if it is not eternal/absolute.
An assertion you cannot substantiate, because you cannot substantiate that this god even exists.
You missed the "to some degree." You do tend to go to extremes in discussions. At one time we could barely predict weather 5 minutes out. Now we can get a reasonable prediction to a couple of days. Nature works according to describable principles. It is not "random" or "haphazard." It IS complex with many variables, making it easy to predict some things (the ball rolling down th hill will end up in the lake) and difficult to predict others (the course of human evolution 15 million years from now).
If you need this illusion of "ultimate purpose" Seer, then by all means stick with your beliefs. I prefer to deal with what IS, not what I WANT it to be. "Ultimate purpose" is unnecessary. I am perfectly fine with "temporal purpose." After all, once I am dead, it will not make one iota of difference. Until then, it matters because I have a mind and the ability to reason. Your error is the assumption that purpose has to be "eternal" or "ultimate" or "absolute" to be real. It doesn't. It also does not have to be rendered externally. I have a mind. I can choose a purpose. So long as I choose something to be my purpose, that is what it will be.
But, out of curiosity, what do you think this god of yours has as a "purpose" for you? In other words, to your god, what is your ultimate purpose, as you understand it?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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