Page 35 of 35 FirstFirst ... 25333435
Results 341 to 350 of 350

Thread: So Easy To Be An Atheist!

  1. #341
    tWebber Roy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Atheist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    5,526
    Amen (Given)
    602
    Amen (Received)
    1430
    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    This is a perfect example of the blatant misrepresentation that forms seer's main debate technique.
    Hey idiot, if Carp doesn't believe his moral views are superior then why does he hold them? What is the logical case for holding views that he doesn't believe are superior to other views?
    [seer mode]
    So you agree that you were misrepresenting Carpedm's views?
    [/seer mode]
    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

    mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

  2. Amen shunyadragon amen'd this post.
  3. #342
    tWebber seer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    New England
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    23,455
    Amen (Given)
    1526
    Amen (Received)
    4676
    Quote Originally Posted by Roy View Post
    So you agree that you were misrepresenting Carpedm's views?
    No idiot, I'm trying to find out; if he doesn't believe his moral views are superior then why does he hold them? What is the basis or logic?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  4. #343
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Faith
    Atheist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    11,665
    Amen (Given)
    24
    Amen (Received)
    1042
    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    So you agree that your moral opinion is never superior to its opposite.
    It is relatively and subjectively superior - or I would not hold it. I cannot make absolute/objective claims from a relative/subjective system. You're basically back to Technique #1. You cannot seem to get away from it, nor even to see that you're doing it over and over again.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    And religion can also be key to social cohesion. And as with the number of studies I linked it also makes men happier, more confident, healthier and less anxious.
    Of course it can. There are good and bad aspects to pretty much everything. But then again, a local school system can be the basis for social cohesion. An emerging issue with wide impact can be a basis for social cohesion. Having children can be a basis for social cohesion. Something that "makes men happier, more confident, healthier and less anxious," is not an assurance that it is true. And you might note that Prozac and Ritalin can do those things too.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Well no, the Founders could have grounded rights in the collective or under the guise of the social contract, but they didn't. Linking rights to God took human vagaries out of the picture. So when leftists like you come along and attempt to remove a natural right (the right of self defense, Second Amendment) we on my side have the rational and logical basis for resistance. The Founders just didn't tell the King that they had a different opinion than his, they said he was violating God given natural rights.
    As I have noted multiple times now, Seer, linking things to a nonexistent being may make you feel good, but it does not make it true. Linking rights to a non existent god may give everyone the sense of "stability," but since the reality is that these rights are grounded in what men think about this god, it is actually just as subject to human vagaries. And we have seen exactly that over the years. People have been using "god" as the justification for both extreme good and extreme ill since the dawn of men. It doesn't make the belief in god true. It doesn't make the claim one based in reality.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  5. Amen JimL amen'd this post.
  6. #344
    tWebber seer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    New England
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    23,455
    Amen (Given)
    1526
    Amen (Received)
    4676
    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    It is relatively and subjectively superior - or I would not hold it. I cannot make absolute/objective claims from a relative/subjective system. You're basically back to Technique #1. You cannot seem to get away from it, nor even to see that you're doing it over and over again.
    OK, so you do believe that your view is superior. You just can't back it up deductively/logically.

    Of course it can. There are good and bad aspects to pretty much everything. But then again, a local school system can be the basis for social cohesion. An emerging issue with wide impact can be a basis for social cohesion. Having children can be a basis for social cohesion. Something that "makes men happier, more confident, healthier and less anxious," is not an assurance that it is true. And you might note that Prozac and Ritalin can do those things too.
    Right, so the point being that belief in God can be socially good as well as bad, personally helpful or not. So why bring up belief in God as a social negative in the first place?



    As I have noted multiple times now, Seer, linking things to a nonexistent being may make you feel good, but it does not make it true.
    Doesn't make it false either.


    Linking rights to a non existent god may give everyone the sense of "stability," but since the reality is that these rights are grounded in what men think about this god, it is actually just as subject to human vagaries. And we have seen exactly that over the years. People have been using "god" as the justification for both extreme good and extreme ill since the dawn of men. It doesn't make the belief in god true. It doesn't make the claim one based in reality.
    I was merely presenting the rationale of the Founders, points I happen to agree with.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  7. #345
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Faith
    Atheist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    11,665
    Amen (Given)
    24
    Amen (Received)
    1042
    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    OK, so you do believe that your view is superior. You just can't back it up deductively/logically.
    No - I can back it up deductively and logically - in a subjective/relative framework. You now seem to be arguing that deduction and logic are only valid in absolute/objective frameworks. That is not true, as I have shown over and over and over again - and you continue to ignore. You just don't seem to get it.

    1. I prefer pizza for lunch (subjective statement)
    2. That restaurant sells pizza (objectively true statement relative to that restaurant)
    3. I should go to that restaurant for lunch (logical conclusion from premises 1 & 2)

    Is is a perfectly rational, logical, syllogism - the heart of a logical argument. It is validly constructed and sound if the two premises are true.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Right, so the point being that belief in God can be socially good as well as bad, personally helpful or not.
    Correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    So why bring up belief in God as a social negative in the first place?
    Because if god does not exist (as I believe) religion is simply about control. Sure - "controlled" people can be happier - have less stress. That does not make their life "better." They are building their lives on a false perception of the universe. And it is rife with dangers. All it takes is for the "controllers" to adopt a self-serving agenda - and the "controlled" will line up to drink the Koolaid, fight the government, wait for the comet, etc. That is a possibility with ANY controlling system - even governments. That is why a democratic government is the best alternative. In a sense, religions are dictatorships, without an actual dictator. Kind of a "Wizard of Oz" effect...

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Doesn't make it false either.
    What makes it false is the absence of a god.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    I was merely presenting the rationale of the Founders, points I happen to agree with.
    I'm sure you do. My point was that I never take what a person says as gospel because of who/what he/she is. I don't care they were the FFs. I only care if they were right. Sometimes they were. Sometimes not.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  8. #346
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Sydney/Phuket
    Faith
    Atheist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    10,941
    Amen (Given)
    2425
    Amen (Received)
    1738
    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    OK, so you do believe that your view is superior. You just can't back it up deductively/logically.
    YOU certainly can't back up you moral view "deductively or logically", because it is grounded in a fictional entity.

    Right, so the point being that belief in God can be socially good as well as bad, personally helpful or not. So why bring up belief in God as a social negative in the first place?
    Gods cannot be shown to exist, consequently they cannot be used as a logical basis of morality.

    Doesn't make it false either.
    It makes it irrelevant.

    I was merely presenting the rationale of the Founders, points I happen to agree with.
    Well you're wrong. The Founding Fathers did not create the USA as a Christian Nation per se. Christianity and Religion are not mentioned in the Constitution. “The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” —John Adams, second President of the United States. "In the words of Thomas Jefferson, third President of the United States, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect a wall of separation between church and state."

    These two Founding Fathers were also instrumental in drawing up the Declaration of Independence and it's reference to God is certainly not what you like to say it is. Thomas Jefferson in an April 11, 1823, letter to John Adams: "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. ... But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding...."



    .
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  9. #347
    tWebber seer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    New England
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    23,455
    Amen (Given)
    1526
    Amen (Received)
    4676
    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    No - I can back it up deductively and logically - in a subjective/relative framework. You now seem to be arguing that deduction and logic are only valid in absolute/objective frameworks. That is not true, as I have shown over and over and over again - and you continue to ignore. You just don't seem to get it.

    1. I prefer pizza for lunch (subjective statement)
    2. That restaurant sells pizza (objectively true statement relative to that restaurant)
    3. I should go to that restaurant for lunch (logical conclusion from premises 1 & 2)

    Is is a perfectly rational, logical, syllogism - the heart of a logical argument. It is validly constructed and sound if the two premises are true.
    But the argument has never been about logically demonstrating a personal preference for pizza, that is trivial. But about how one can logically show why one moral view is superior or better than its opposite. And I take it you can't, not even in principle.

    Because if god does not exist (as I believe) religion is simply about control. Sure - "controlled" people can be happier - have less stress. That does not make their life "better." They are building their lives on a false perception of the universe. And it is rife with dangers. All it takes is for the "controllers" to adopt a self-serving agenda - and the "controlled" will line up to drink the Koolaid, fight the government, wait for the comet, etc. That is a possibility with ANY controlling system - even governments. That is why a democratic government is the best alternative. In a sense, religions are dictatorships, without an actual dictator. Kind of a "Wizard of Oz" effect...
    It makes no sense to single out religion, except to demonstrate your bias. And religion is not necessary about control, it is also about hope, something that is foreign to atheism. And like I said, if I'm wrong in the end, and religion is all bollocks, what have I lost? Belief has imparted hope, comfort, and joy, and if you are correct, when I'm dead, I won't know the difference anyway.


    What makes it false is the absence of a god.
    But you don't know that God doesn't exist.


    I'm sure you do. My point was that I never take what a person says as gospel because of who/what he/she is. I don't care they were the FFs. I only care if they were right. Sometimes they were. Sometimes not.
    Well you don't believe in unalienable rights or duties or inherent human worth because you have rejected the concept of God. Your bias has clouded your judgement, so of course you think they were wrong.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  10. #348
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Sydney/Phuket
    Faith
    Atheist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    10,941
    Amen (Given)
    2425
    Amen (Received)
    1738
    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    But the argument has never been about logically demonstrating a personal preference for pizza, that is trivial. But about how one can logically show why one moral view is superior or better than its opposite. And I take it you can't, not even in principle.
    One cannot make a 'sound' deductive, logical argument that your moral view is superior when you cannot show that the premise (i.e. God's exists) is true. You have no argument.

    It makes no sense to single out religion, except to demonstrate your bias. And religion is not necessary about control, it is also about hope, something that is foreign to atheism. And like I said, if I'm wrong in the end, and religion is all bollocks, what have I lost? Belief has imparted hope, comfort, and joy, and if you are correct, when I'm dead, I won't know the difference anyway.
    What you have lost is a life grounded in reality and substantive knowledge, living instead a life grounded in escapist fantasy based upon man-made myths deriving from the Bronze Age .

    But you don't know that God doesn't exist.
    You don't know that God does exist. It's highly unlikely, there's no substantive evidence that an invisible, supernatural entity such as a god exists.

    Well you don't believe in unalienable rights or duties or inherent human worth because you have rejected the concept of God. Your bias has clouded your judgement, so of course you think they were wrong.
    Our morality derives from our evolved qualities of empathy, the ability to learn and follow social rules, reciprocity and peacemaking — these are the basis of all our morality, not God.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  11. #349
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Faith
    Atheist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    11,665
    Amen (Given)
    24
    Amen (Received)
    1042
    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    But the argument has never been about logically demonstrating a personal preference for pizza, that is trivial. But about how one can logically show why one moral view is superior or better than its opposite. And I take it you can't, not even in principle.
    One cannot make an "absolute/objective" claim from a relative/subjective framework. But we both know that already. You're not saying anything new. You're just returning to Technique #1 again - without realizing you have no argument. You're just repeating the definition of subjective/relative and objective/absolute (yet again), and I see you tossed in a Technique #3 for effect...

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    It makes no sense to single out religion, except to demonstrate your bias.
    I'm NOT singling out religion. Dictatorships and monarchies have a similar characteristic - except one can show that the dictator and monarch actually exist!

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    And religion is not necessary about control, it is also about hope, something that is foreign to atheism.
    Isn't it odd - I'm an atheist and I'm having no problem with hope. Unless, of course, you mean "absolute/eternal" hope...which of course means you just returned to Technique #1. (yet again). Seer, I am becoming truly convinced that you cannot see that you do not have any argument whatsoever. I think your worldview is blinding you. I know you said you "once believed as I do," except I suspect you never actually thought through the belief system. Many atheists don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    And like I said, if I'm wrong in the end, and religion is all bollocks, what have I lost?
    You have lost the truth and based your life on a false belief.

    Other than that - nothing. I'm sure you'll be happy, and you'll probably be mostly a good man. But you'll continue to persecute the LGBTQ community with your words, and oppose their rights. And you'll engage other harmful actions that are rooted in your beliefs. You'll also do good. So, basically, you'll be like the rest of us - a combination of good and bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Belief has imparted hope, comfort, and joy, and if you are correct, when I'm dead, I won't know the difference anyway.
    And if that works for you... so be it.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    But you don't know that God doesn't exist.
    None of us "knows" anything with 100% certainty. We conclude on the basis of available evidence. I believe god doe snot exist on the strength of that evidence - just as you believe this being DOES exist on the strength of the evidence you have gather as you have interpreted it. I find your interpretation faulty and full of huge assumptions. I'm sure you see mine in much the same light.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Well you don't believe in unalienable rights or duties or inherent human worth because you have rejected the concept of God. Your bias has clouded your judgement, so of course you think they were wrong.
    Actually - I don't believe in "inalienable rights" because I have never encountered one. I can think of no right that cannot be stripped from a person or voluntarily given up by a person. The language is emotional and certainly rallies the troops - it just isn't real.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  12. #350
    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Near my best friend (see photo above)
    Faith
    XPian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    590
    Amen (Given)
    1792
    Amen (Received)
    114
    Well said. “It’s not easy for any of us”, regardless of our beliefs or convictions. That surely is something everyone can agree about.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •