Collusion update: "no factual evidence"

[rogue06]

Obama never bragged that he could kill somebody in cold blood and still maintain his following.

I think as usual Trump's hyperbole was, shall we say, a tad bit exaggerated. OTOH Trump never claimed that the planet itself was reacting positively to his merely being nominated and his followers have never excitedly talked about getting a thrill up there leg or called him "a god" or the Messiah.

[rogue06]

Why are current bad actions by Trump supporters justified by the bad actions of someone supporting Obama or Bill Clinton in the past?

It's a matter of pointing out the amazing hypocritical double standard. When a liberal does it (and often far worse like Obama's attack on the press) it's met with a yawn, but when Trump does it the reaction is an over-the-top shrill cry about constitutional crisis and the need to impeach.

[Charles]

Why are current bad actions by Trump supporters justified by the bad actions of someone supporting Obama or Bill Clinton in the past?

Could someone please explain in what moral schema derived from the teachings of Christ a Person is justified doing something wrong because somebody else somewhere else also did something wrong in the past?

So far no one will give that little explanation, but you all just keep acting like it makes some kind of moral sense.

My guess is you are doing it for the same reason a 5 year old does it. You know you are wrong. But I'll listen to an alternative if someone will give it.


Jim

[Cerebrum123]

Why are current bad actions by Trump supporters justified by the bad actions of someone supporting Obama or Bill Clinton in the past?

Could someone please explain in what moral schema derived from the teachings of Christ a Person is justified doing something wrong because somebody else somewhere else also did something wrong in the past?

So far no one will give that little explanation, but you all just keep acting like it makes some kind of moral sense.

My guess is you are doing it for the same reason a 5 year old does it. You know you are wrong. But I'll listen to an alternative if someone will give it.


Jim

You are the one who said Trump was worse than others before him. I'm saying that if you actually compare that isn't the case. How is that justifying any wrong any of them have done? You are the one who said Obama wasn't as bad regarding "bewitchment", and I highly disagree when one was regarded as a god while the other wasn't.

None of what I said was intended to justify anyone's actions. That is something you read into my post. I even said explicitly that I dislike Trump.

Obama never bragged that he could kill somebody in cold blood and still maintain his following.

I still don't see that as worse even if I read it in the least charitable light possible. A god is is going to be allowed to get away with more than just murder. Remember oxmixmudd said that Trump was worse when it came to "bewitching" the populace, and not self aggrandizement.

Are there people who think Trump can do no wrong? Undoubtedly. They seem to be an order of magnitude less than Obama had, and I'm not seeing them make widespread blasphemous comparisons about him.

Just to get this made clear I do not like Trump! This seems to go unnoticed evry time I say it. The font size likely won't change that, but seems to be less frowned upon than all caps.

[KingsGambit]

Just to get this made clear I do not like Trump! This seems to go unnoticed evry time I say it. The font size likely won't change that, but seems to be less frowned upon than all caps.

Like him or not, you seem to be constantly making excuses for him when he is criticized, namely, the "Obama was worse anyway" excuse.

Obama did get some pushback on the left, though not as much as I would have liked. Before his "change of position", I kind of enjoyed prodding my progressive activist friends by reminding them he did not publicly support gay marriage.

I wish he would have had more internal pushback on his foreign policy, namely, drone strikes of civilians.

[rogue06]

Like him or not, you seem to be constantly making excuses for him when he is criticized, namely, the "Obama was worse anyway" excuse.

This can more than likely be addressed by post #242

[Cerebrum123]

Like him or not, you seem to be constantly making excuses for him when he is criticized, namely, the "Obama was worse anyway" excuse.

Obama did get some pushback on the left, though not as much as I would have liked. Before his "change of position", I kind of enjoyed prodding my progressive activist friends by reminding them he did not publicly support gay marriage.

I wish he would have had more internal pushback on his foreign policy, namely, drone strikes of civilians.

How is saying in effect "You are wrong about Trump being worse than Obama on this issue." the same as "Trump did nothing wrong"? I've done maybe two or three posts in threads about about Trump*, how is that "constantly making excuses" for him?

At this point I'm beginning to change my mind about Trump due to the insane reactions he's getting which are very often over nothing, or outright lies about him.

*In anything remotely recent. I've made it clear a long time ago that I didn't vote for him in the primaries, but felt that in that Hillary was a worse option than him.

[rogue06]

You are the one who said Trump was worse than others before him. I'm saying that if you actually compare that isn't the case. How is that justifying any wrong any of them have done? You are the one who said Obama wasn't as bad regarding "bewitchment", and I highly disagree when one was regarded as a god while the other wasn't.

Apparently it is yet again time to remind folks just how much adoring veneration and reverence was given to Obama by his supporters.

• Like when Newsweek editor Evan Thomas was doing when he declared on MSNBC's

• And when Ezra Klein gushed about Obama in The American Prospect that,
  
  

• And of course there's when Mark Morford, columnist and culture critic for the San Francisco Chronicle
  "many spiritually advanced people I know (not coweringly religious, mind you, but deeply spiritual) identify Obama as a Lightworker, that rare kind of attuned being who has the ability to lead us not merely to new foreign policies or health care plans or whatnot, but who can actually help usher in a new way of being on the planet, of relating and connecting and engaging with this bizarre earthly experiment. These kinds of people actually help us evolve. They are philosophers and peacemakers of a very high order, and they speak not just to reason or emotion, but to the soul."

• Or Florida A&M professor Barbara A. Thompson, who wrote The Gospel According to Apostle Barack: In Search of a More Perfect Political Union as "Heaven Here on Earth."

• Or how in a September, 2008 opinion essay in the Smith College Sophian titled "I Will Follow Him: Obama As My Personal Jesus," associate editor Maggie Mertens proclaimed "Obama is my Jesus." She went on to say
  
  While you may be overtly religious and find this to be idol-worshipping, or may be overtly politically correct and just know that everything in that sentence could be found offensive, I'm afraid it's true anyway.
  
  She went on to say she was in the "middle of a bleak, hopeless period of my life" but then
  
  Then I found my miracle. Stumbling through my hopeless world, afraid to turn to anyone with my political questions of morality, my concerns about the afterlife of the country I called home, a voice spoke to me. Barack Obama bore to me his testimony...
  
  She continued writing about how "I came to Jesus/Obama" and concluded
  
  I've officially been saved, and soon, whether they like it or not, the rest of the country will be too. I will follow him, all the way to the White House, and I'll be standing there in our nation's capital in January 2009, when Barack Obama is inaugurated as the 44th president of the United States of America. In the name of Obama, Amen.

• Or how on November 25th, 2012 at the Soul Train Awards program, televised worldwide on the BET network, Jamie Foxx whipped up the large crowd attending the event to a hand-waving, jumping-up-and-down frenzy by shouting, "First of all, give an honor to God and our Lord and Savior Barack Obama! Barack Obama!"
  
  
  

• Or how Denmark's oldest largest newspaper Politiken on December 28, 2009 ran an editorial titled "Obama Greater Than Jesus: The U.S. president - the practical saviour of our times" It said, "He comes from humble beginnings and defends the weak and vulnerable, because he can identify himself with their conditions. And no we are not thinking of Jesus Christ, whose birthday has just been celebrated - but rather the President of the United States Barack Hussein Obama."
  
  The newspaper stated that if a comparison were to be made between Jesus and Obama, "it would, of course, inevitably be to Obama's advantage." And this: "Obama is, of course, greater than Jesus - if we have to play that absurd Christmas game."

• Or how Nation of Islam's Louis Farrahkan proclaimed Obama was the Messiah
  
  
  
  "You are the instruments that God is going to use to bring about universal change, and that is why Barack has captured the youth. And he has involved young people in a political process that they didn't care anything about. That's a sign. When the Messiah speaks, the youth will hear, and the Messiah is absolutely speaking."

• And finally let's not forget Barbara Walters
  
  
  

The fact is, the above exemplified the attitude that a substantial portion of his supporters believed. As Michelle Obama put it, "We have an amazing story to tell. This president has brought us out of the dark and into the light" (Matthew 4:16; cf. Micah 7:8)

And of course Obama himself intoned that the earth itself was reacting positively to his merely winning the Democrat Party's nomination (that "this was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal.") so profound was his presence.

obama worship1.jpg
God of all things

Obama worship2.jpg
Second Coming

[oxmixmudd]

You are the one who said Trump was worse than others before him. I'm saying that if you actually compare that isn't the case. How is that justifying any wrong any of them have done? You are the one who said Obama wasn't as bad regarding "bewitchment", and I highly disagree when one was regarded as a god while the other wasn't.

None of what I said was intended to justify anyone's actions. That is something you read into my post. I even said explicitly that I dislike Trump.



I still don't see that as worse even if I read it in the least charitable light possible. A god is is going to be allowed to get away with more than just murder. Remember oxmixmudd said that Trump was worse when it came to "bewitching" the populace, and not self aggrandizement.

Are there people who think Trump can do no wrong? Undoubtedly. They seem to be an order of magnitude less than Obama had, and I'm not seeing them make widespread blasphemous comparisons about him.

Just to get this made clear I do not like Trump! This seems to go unnoticed evry time I say it. The font size likely won't change that, but seems to be less frowned upon than all caps.

You have misunderstood several of my statements.

1) The 'bewitchment' statement refers to a large part of the evangelical community. It includes some posters here but was not aimed at you specifically. Many evangelical leaders have put their lot in with Trump in various ways. Some have tried to justify or defend his actions. Many local evangelicals I know see Trump as a sort of savior though their Christian Theology would never allow themselves to call a man by that name directly.

The point of that statement you completely missed was this: With Bill, or Hillary, or Obama, we could count on people of Christian Faith being consistent with the teachings of the faith as regards whether they praised or criticised their actions. We did not have people of devout Christian faith ignoring gross violations of moral integrity for the sake of some short term material gain. Indeed, a common mantra in circles of faith during the Lewinsky scandal was 'character matters' - the idea that moral lapses in private predict moral lapses on a grander or more public scale, while many on the support Bill Clinton side were claiming that his character as regards Monica didn't matter, they were saying look at what he's doing politically, for the country. With Trump that is no longer true. Now it is the evangelical Christian community that is claiming character DOESN'T matter and just look at what he is doing politically.

It is blatant hypocrisy. And it matters to me because it is the Christian community doing it. And why should it matter if it is the Christian community instead of just some left leaning political talking heads? Because we are Ambassadors for Christ, not this world. And we have a standard to uphold because we bring the message of salvation to the world. That message can't be compromised for any temporal or materialistic gain.

It boggles my mind that so many I'm talking with keep using some sort of relative moral thinking about this as if its all the same, the Christians and non-Christians alike play by the same rules. IT is NOT. We are called OUT of the world, and we have a different and much higher set of standards we are to live by. As an example, we are to love our enemies. Did not Christ call attention to the fact the 'even the gentiles' love their friends. What reward is there for doing the same? No, we are called to love not just our friends but our enemies. And in that and in so many other ways a Christian is called NOT to base how they live their lives on how 'everybody else' does it.

We are called NOT to live in a symmetric moral tit for tat where the world defines the behavior. Character STILL matters. What doesn't matter is whether or not the offending party is someone we voted for vs someone we voted against.

2) Trump is worse than his predecessors.

I will stand by that.

At the very least he is worse in the quantity if not the quality. He as had multiple affairs - not one or two. He lies openly and constantly, not just when he feels he must to accomplish some critical goal.

But consider also that he has lowered the level of public discourse on all issues. He rarely if ever appeals to our noble or moral nature in anything he does. Obama appealed to that nobility often. As did George Bush and Reagan. Even Bill Clinton did that. But no, Trump appeals only to what is the bottom of the barrel. Worse, Trump often displays not just poor character qualities but grossly immoral character qualities. Consider that Trump openly demeans even those who work for him*.

So in that, not only does Trump eschew 'love your enemies', not only does he eschew 'and eye for an eye', he openly does not even love those that ARE his friends. He loves only his worshipers.

Trump exceeds all before him in his disrespect for the law. In his disrespect for Justice, his disrespect for the law enforcement institutions of this country, and in his open disrespect for all people not praising him at the current moment. He is openly demeaning of those institutions, of our legal system anytime their proper operation hinders him or his goals.

And he exceeds his predecessors in his open rallying of his supporters against the free press. We NEED the free press. Trump doesn't understand that or doesn't care, in a way that exceeds all his predecessors. And most of you supporting him are blind to the danger of that.



Jim

*someone on these pages got very mad at me for appearing to speak poorly of Jeff Sessions. A person who routinely stands behind Trump. Have you seen Trump's true colors yet? Do you see how he has been treating Jeff Sessions because Jeff Sessions has enough integrity to know he had to recuse himself, that he has tried to run the Justice department according to justice, fairness, and the rule of law and not made it a token arm of Trump's political whims. This is not ok with trump, because those ideals are in his way, and he expects loyalty to nothing but Trump. Not God. Not morality. Not the rule of law.

[oxmixmudd]

Apparently it is yet again time to remind folks just how much adoring veneration and reverence was given to Obama by his supporters.

• Like when Newsweek editor Evan Thomas was doing when he declared on MSNBC's

• And when Ezra Klein gushed about Obama in The American Prospect that,
  
  

• And of course there's when Mark Morford, columnist and culture critic for the San Francisco Chronicle
  "many spiritually advanced people I know (not coweringly religious, mind you, but deeply spiritual) identify Obama as a Lightworker, that rare kind of attuned being who has the ability to lead us not merely to new foreign policies or health care plans or whatnot, but who can actually help usher in a new way of being on the planet, of relating and connecting and engaging with this bizarre earthly experiment. These kinds of people actually help us evolve. They are philosophers and peacemakers of a very high order, and they speak not just to reason or emotion, but to the soul."

• Or Florida A&M professor Barbara A. Thompson, who wrote The Gospel According to Apostle Barack: In Search of a More Perfect Political Union as "Heaven Here on Earth."

• Or how in a September, 2008 opinion essay in the Smith College Sophian titled "I Will Follow Him: Obama As My Personal Jesus," associate editor Maggie Mertens proclaimed "Obama is my Jesus." She went on to say
  
  While you may be overtly religious and find this to be idol-worshipping, or may be overtly politically correct and just know that everything in that sentence could be found offensive, I'm afraid it's true anyway.
  
  She went on to say she was in the "middle of a bleak, hopeless period of my life" but then
  
  Then I found my miracle. Stumbling through my hopeless world, afraid to turn to anyone with my political questions of morality, my concerns about the afterlife of the country I called home, a voice spoke to me. Barack Obama bore to me his testimony...
  
  She continued writing about how "I came to Jesus/Obama" and concluded
  
  I've officially been saved, and soon, whether they like it or not, the rest of the country will be too. I will follow him, all the way to the White House, and I'll be standing there in our nation's capital in January 2009, when Barack Obama is inaugurated as the 44th president of the United States of America. In the name of Obama, Amen.

• Or how on November 25th, 2012 at the Soul Train Awards program, televised worldwide on the BET network, Jamie Foxx whipped up the large crowd attending the event to a hand-waving, jumping-up-and-down frenzy by shouting, "First of all, give an honor to God and our Lord and Savior Barack Obama! Barack Obama!"
  
  
  

• Or how Denmark's oldest largest newspaper Politiken on December 28, 2009 ran an editorial titled "Obama Greater Than Jesus: The U.S. president - the practical saviour of our times" It said, "He comes from humble beginnings and defends the weak and vulnerable, because he can identify himself with their conditions. And no we are not thinking of Jesus Christ, whose birthday has just been celebrated - but rather the President of the United States Barack Hussein Obama."
  
  The newspaper stated that if a comparison were to be made between Jesus and Obama, "it would, of course, inevitably be to Obama's advantage." And this: "Obama is, of course, greater than Jesus - if we have to play that absurd Christmas game."

• Or how Nation of Islam's Louis Farrahkan proclaimed Obama was the Messiah
  
  
  
  "You are the instruments that God is going to use to bring about universal change, and that is why Barack has captured the youth. And he has involved young people in a political process that they didn't care anything about. That's a sign. When the Messiah speaks, the youth will hear, and the Messiah is absolutely speaking."

• And finally let's not forget Barbara Walters
  
  
  

The fact is, the above exemplified the attitude that a substantial portion of his supporters believed. As Michelle Obama put it, "We have an amazing story to tell. This president has brought us out of the dark and into the light" (Matthew 4:16; cf. Micah 7:8)

While I agree that sort of adulation was both foolish and immoral, I would note that when Christians abandon the teachings of Christ to support a man like Trump, they have also effectively traded the true Messiah for a false one. And since you are so focused on tit for tat moral comparisons: which is worse

1) A people who seek a Messiah and find what they think is Messiah in a man.
2) the followers of the True Messiah abanden His teachings to support a man, a false Messiah.

And of course Obama himself intoned that the earth itself was reacting positively to his merely winning the Democrat Party's nomination (that "this was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal.") so profound was his presence.

This would be a ridiculous interpretation of that statement. He refers to the fact his administration will work to curb Global Warming.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]30298[/ATTACH]
God of all things

[ATTACH=CONFIG]30299[/ATTACH]
Second Coming

Yep - all those are stupid. If I were Obama, I'd have been very upset about them and would have made statements to try to stop it. And if he didn't, he should have. Nevertheless, I see a lot of parallels in how the Christian/conservative population of the united states view Donald Trump, especially in their deference to his moral lapses. They just know better than to express their adulation in those terms.


Jim

[rogue06]

While I agree that sort of adulation was both foolish and immoral, I would note that when Christians abandon the teachings of Christ to support a man like Trump, they have also effectively traded the true Messiah for a false one. And since you are so focused on tit for tat moral comparisons: which is worse

1) A people who seek a Messiah and find what they think is Messiah in a man.
2) the followers of the True Messiah abanden His teachings to support a man, a false Messiah.

Simply voting for the lesser of two evils and then pointing out the hysterical over-the-top and sometimes outright scurrilous charges leveled against him is hardly equivalent to the worshipful adulation where he was literally called god, the Messiah and better than Jesus simply cannot be equated at any level.

This would be a ridiculous interpretation of that statement. He refers to the fact his administration will work to curb Global Warming.

Um, no. He was proclaiming how he was "absolutely certain that generations from now" that "this was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal." That wasn't about what he planned to do in the future but what was taking place at this moment.

Yep - all those are stupid. If I were Obama, I'd have been very upset about them and would have made statements to try to stop it. And if he didn't, he should have. Nevertheless, I see a lot of parallels in how the Christian/conservative population of the united states view Donald Trump, especially in their deference to his moral lapses. They just know better than to express their adulation in those terms.

Not only did he not make any move to stop it, he ate it up. He reveled in it.

[Leonhard]

You know I'm thinking if Trump wanted Hillary in jail, maybe he should just have hired her?

[rogue06]

You know I'm thinking if Trump wanted Hillary in jail, maybe he should just have hired her?

[oxmixmudd]

Simply voting for the lesser of two evils and then pointing out the hysterical over-the-top and sometimes outright scurrilous charges leveled against him is hardly equivalent to the worshipful adulation where he was literally called god, the Messiah and better than Jesus simply cannot be equated at any level.

Rougue, you know because I have stated over and over again I speak not of voting for Trump as the lessor of two evils, but of unequivocal support even in the face of repeated and eqregious immoral acts.

[Quote]
Um, no. He was proclaiming how he was "absolutely certain that generations from now" that "this was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal." That wasn't about what he planned to do in the future but what was taking place at this moment. [Quote]

The statement was clearly about global warming and his administration's commitment to making the changes necessary to do something about it. It is definatly over the top in optimism as to what they could accomplish, but your take on it is frankly absurd.

Not only did he not make any move to stop it, he ate it up. He reveled in it.

Whether that true I couldn't say. As I said in another post possibly in another thread, I didn't follow politics as much during Obama's time as president.

Jim

[Cerebrum123]

You know I'm thinking if Trump wanted Hillary in jail, maybe he should just have hired her?