Collusion update: "no factual evidence"

[Bill the Cat]

As everyone can see BtC, you evaded answering the question I asked of you, oh ye of superior knowledge.

No I didn't. I provided the wider context to your ill-informed question.

[JimL]

I suspect Putin really favored the candidate who as Secretary of State showed a willingness to sell out her country for the right price. Trump was a political unknown and has, in fact, instituted a number of policies that have angered Putin.

Of course you suspect that, MM. Apparently Putin and Trump recognised and took advantage of what most of us missed, i.e. that there were a lot more of you naive knuckleheads out there than we ever knew.

[One Bad Pig]

I suspect Putin really favored the candidate who as Secretary of State showed a willingness to sell out her country for the right price. Trump was a political unknown and has, in fact, instituted a number of policies that have angered Putin.

If so, his support would have been strictly temporary - and with her subsequent humiliation in view, since the former Sec'y of State attempted to push him out of power 4 years prior.

[Bill the Cat]

Nope. Like I said, I am on the rock.

Cocaine?

[One Bad Pig]

Of course you suspect that, MM. Apparently Putin and Trump recognised and took advantage of what most of us missed, i.e. that there were a lot more of you naive knuckleheads out there than we ever knew.

Hey Jim, I can't help but note that you're doing precisely what you just accused me of doing. Perhaps a little self-reflection on your part is in order.

[oxmixmudd]

You mean like Jesus telling people to take the plank out of their own eye before complaining about the splinter in others?

You are condeming your own Christian brothers as supporting sin because you don't like Trump. Yet what sins are we supporting? And you ignore the plank in your own eye by supporting the Democrats who push Abortion on demand, legitimizing gay marriage, taking prayer out of school, removing the 10 commandments from any public display, and generally trying to wipe out Christianity. That doesn't bother you, but because we voted for Trump we are condemned? Get off your high horse and look around at who you are supporting, Jim.

Of course those things you mention bother me, though the way you characterize them is part of the extreme polarization that is dividing this country and doesn't help change the direction things are going. Do you suppose that what Trump is doing, and more importantly HOW he is doing it, will not cause a rebound effect? What is happening here is that each side is painting each other more and more as demons, where each side is losing the capacity to see the other side as human. And no one is feeding that fire any more than Donald Trump (which incidentally is Putin's goal - to divide us amongst ourselves weakening us)


We can't just ignore massive issues and moral lapses in governance just because we want to be able to accomplish something in another area. Donald Trump is setting standards for the abuse of presidential power that should not be tolerated. Do you not understand that the previous President's excess becomes the next President's norm? And Trump has put the scale and speed of rushing headlong into destructive practices and personal abuse of power on steroids. Do you really want the next President with more or significant liberal leanings building on what Trump has done in terms of those things?

You are all being very myopic here. What Trump is doing is taking the destruction of civility and self-restraint in power to new levels by an order of magnitude. He is openly hostile to all that checks the power of the executive branch. To all that keeps our civilization civil. He has a very limited understanding of history and WHY the founding fathers put together the system of government we have and openly eschews that which he does understand. A system where the three branches ACT AS RESTRAINTS on the nearly unlimited potential for a human being to abuse power. Where the press and the blockade against censorship that is the 1st amendment holds all 3 branches openly accountable to the public that elected them. Donald Trump IS the reason the founding fathers created the type of government we have. And the House and the Evangelical Christians and others are openly enhancing his capability to do exactly what the founding fathers tried to prevent. We all must hold this man accountable for his actions. And where he is off the map morally or politically, we need to push back. And where he is acting recklessly and dangerously in terms of his governance, we must push back.

And as Christians especially we must not allow ourselves to excuse the rich at the expense of the poor. James tells us that directly. Donald Trump is the Rich as Jesus talked about them. The one who takes poor people to court just because he can. The one that takes advantage of the little guy. The one that wields his power with joy as he crushes those around him he simply doesn't like. This is that fellow. Look what he did to Puerto Rico! Just because their Governor criticized him.

They may all be that way to some extent (Politicians) but he is the creme de la creme of that sort of person.

It is wrong to blindly support him as he sought help from Russia in the campaign and make up excuses for such obviously unpatriotic, un-American, and possibly even treasonous behavior, or to glory in his apparent defeat of justice as the OP of this thread does.

Jim

[oxmixmudd]

If so, his support would have been strictly temporary - and with her subsequent humiliation in view, since the former Sec'y of State attempted to push him out of power 4 years prior.

Yep. There is no doubt that at the very least Putin supported Trump because of his hatred for Hillary, he said so himself ...

just like the evangelical Christians ...

interesting.


Jim

[Sparko]

Of course those things you mention bother me, though the way you characterize them is part of the extreme polarization that is dividing this country and doesn't help change the direction things are going. Do you suppose that what Trump is doing, and more importantly HOW he is doing it, will not cause a rebound effect? What is happening here is that each side is painting each other more and more as demons, where each side is losing the capacity to see the other side as human. And no one is feeding that fire any more than Donald Trump (which incidentally is Putin's goal - to divide us amongst ourselves weakening us)

I agree, and your posts in this thread seem to be going right along with it, with your accusations against other Christians.

I have stated I don't like Trump as a person. I think he is an arrogant, egotistical narcissist who spends way too much time acting like a juvenile on twitter. Yet I have seen no actual evidence of a collusion with Russia, nor of him doing anything illegal or traitorous. You seem to think differently, but is that difference of opinion basis for you to question our morality or commitment to Christ? You are the one trying to divide us here in this thread as far as I can tell. I get you don't like Trump and think he is evil, but WE DON'T. We disagree with you. We are not purposefully following evil incarnate. We are following someone who we think is for the most part doing the right thing. Even when like I said, many of us don't particularly like him as a person. I don't think you actually support abortion, or anti-Christian sentiment policies of the democrats, even if you are a democrat. I don't question your faith because of the democratic party's platform.

[One Bad Pig]

Yep. There is no doubt that at the very least Putin supported Trump because of his hatred for Hillary, he said so himself ...

just like the evangelical Christians ...

interesting.


Jim

I'm not sure I want to know how you managed to get that out of what I said.

You need help, Jim. Your fixation on Trump can't be healthy.

[oxmixmudd]

I agree, and your posts in this thread seem to be going right along with it, with your accusations against other Christians.

I have stated I don't like Trump as a person. I think he is an arrogant, egotistical narcissist who spends way too much time acting like a juvenile on twitter. Yet I have seen no actual evidence of a collusion with Russia, nor of him doing anything illegal or traitorous. You seem to think differently, but is that difference of opinion basis for you to question our morality or commitment to Christ? You are the one trying to divide us here in this thread as far as I can tell. I get you don't like Trump and think he is evil, but WE DON'T. We disagree with you. We are not purposefully following evil incarnate. We are following someone who we think is for the most part doing the right thing. Even when like I said, many of us don't particularly like him as a person. I don't think you actually support abortion, or anti-Christian sentiment policies of the democrats, even if you are a democrat. I don't question your faith because of the democratic party's platform.

My calls are not accusations. They are calls to wake and remember who we are. Somehow the majority of evangelicals have forgotten who they are - at least as it relates to Trump. Though it's not just in this issue of Donald Trump either*. And somebody has to do the wake-up call. I know its more comfortable not to be rattled out of one's sleep like that, but believe me, it's no fun being the guy getting the coffee cups tossed at him either.

I promise - I don't think I'm any better a Christian than any of you. There is a good chance I'm worse. But I believe with all my heart "Satan has bewitched you all" so to speak on these issues surrounding Donald Trump. And I'm not going to stop trying to get you to wake up to what is going on just because you get mad at me and tell my I'm a self-righteous blow hard. This is too important a situation to let that bother me.

And I will always listen for reasoned arguments as to why I am the one that doesn't get it.



Jim

*Consider the health and wealth prosperity doctrine for one ...
+and I'm not a registered Democrat either ... just so you know.

[JimL]

I'm not sure I want to know how you managed to get that out of what I said.

You need help, Jim. Your fixation on Trump can't be healthy.

Such arrogance! It's you Trump defenders that need help, there absolutely must needs be something wrong with your brains.

[Bill the Cat]

My calls are not accusations. They are calls to wake and remember who we are. Somehow the majority of evangelicals have forgotten who they are - at least as it relates to Trump. Though it's not just in this issue of Donald Trump either*. And somebody has to do the wake-up call. I know its more comfortable not to be rattled out of one's sleep like that, but believe me, it's no fun being the guy getting the coffee cups tossed at him either.

I promise - I don't think I'm any better a Christian than any of you. There is a good chance I'm worse. But I believe with all my heart "Satan has bewitched you all" so to speak on these issues surrounding Donald Trump. And I'm not going to stop trying to get you to wake up to what is going on just because you get mad at me and tell my I'm a self-righteous blow hard. This is too important a situation to let that bother me.

And I will always listen for reasoned arguments as to why I am the one that doesn't get it.



Jim

*Consider the health and wealth prosperity doctrine for one ...
+and I'm not a registered Democrat either ... just so you know.

Can you tell us what "issues" you think we are asleep to?

[Sparko]

Such arrogance! It's you Trump defenders that need help, there absolutely must needs be something wrong with your brains.

You agreeing with Oxmix about Trump should be the wake up call he needs to see how off base he is. Hopefully.

[JimL]

You agreeing with Oxmix about Trump should be the wake up call he needs to see how off base he is. Hopefully.

Why, is what you believe dependent upon who agrees with you?

[Sparko]

Why, is what you believe dependent upon who agrees with you?

only when it is you.