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On the Etiquette of dying

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  • On the Etiquette of dying

    I don't know quite where to put this but it does have some science in it. If someone wants to move it that is ok.

    I am writing this knowing it will make no difference in anything because no one listens and changes their mind on anything anyway. I do this because it is cathartic for me. I do this because I have had one too many frustrating encounters with those who don't have cancer. People seem not to know how to deal with someone with cancer.

    I spent my life exploring for oil and learned to be blunt about facts--I either succeeded or failed, few gray areas. I had to have the bluntness in the face of a $200 million dry hole to tell my employers that I had just lost them that much money. That builds a thick skin. So what I will say will appear blunt to many. It is just my way of dealing with success and failure.

    First I want to say something to the Cancer patient, then to those who are dealing with them. When you are told you have cancer you will go into a deep depression thinking all you have done is worthless. That will last a while, but pull yourself out of it and don't play the victim card, the woe is me card with everyone. Doing that will drive everyone away from you. No one likes being around needy people, whose needs and problem simply can't be fixed. Telling people all your problems, leaves them feeling helpless because there is precisely nothing they can do to really fix the situation--yes, they can adjust a pillow and get you a drink, but they can't cure you. Both of you know that and it leaves the non-cancer patient feeling helpless, useless, guilty and bad all at the same time. Over time he will avoid you. To the cancer patient, be as friendly and positive minded as you can be--you are still alive to interact with your family and that is still a big gift. Whining about what you won't have after you are dead is like whining about not being a billionaire; no one can help you get there. [note: there is an useful exception to not playing the woe is me card; it does get telephone solicitors off the phone quickly when you tell them about your disease]

    If you are a Christian, believing in the afterlife, we are going to a better place. Go out of this world acting like you actually believe there is a heaven. To get incredibly desperate and try desperate remedies as you leave this world betrays a lack of faith; a lack of grace. Don't grasp greedily at the quack cures and charlatan offers of weird diets to cure your cancer. Years ago a couple whose wife was dying of breast cancer (a cancer my wife had had), asked my scientific opinion on a cure they wanted to try. After listening to this guy's tape saying how he could cure everything wrong with mankind, I told them what I thought of it. The man said, "So you wouldn't let your wife get on it?" to which I replied. I would tell her what I thought of it if she asked, and take her there if she wanted to try it. I don't believe in crushing hopes of the dying even if I think it is misplaced hope. The couple tried it and it didn't work. Such cures never seem to work. More on that below.

    It remains to be seen how desperate I will become, but I do believe deeply now after decades of doubt about Christianity, I now accept it with a firmness, and with some evidence. My atheist friends seem to dismiss the biggest scientific evidence that our mentality, our qualia, our spirit or soul, is somehow more important than the external world the philosophical materialist believes is all there is. I define the believer in philosophical materialism as this partial paraphrase of the internet definition gives : the doctrine that nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications. Consciousness and human will are entirely caused by material agency (causation). This philosophy rules out God, gods, miracles, afterlife, souls etc. Yet the philosophy is disproven by one simple scientific fact that few note. Matter is subject to Soul, mind or whatever you want to call it. It isn't consciousness that is caused by matter; it seems to be closer to the opposite. Steven Weinberg notes how science should work, as opposed to how quantum actually does work.

    Originally posted by Scientific American July 2018, p. 32
    "Fundamentally, I have an ideal of what a physical theory should be. It should be something that doesn't refer in any specific way to human beings. It should be something from which everything else--including anything you can say systematically about chemistry, or biology, or human affairs--can be derived. It shouldn't have human beings at the beginning in the laws of nature. And yet, I don't see any way of formulating quantum mechanics without interpretative postulate that refers to what happens when people choose to measure one thing or another."
    If I set up my equipment to measure light energy passing by a galaxy 2 billion light years away, and thus two billion years ago, I can chose to see it as a particle (photon) that goes on one side or the other side of the galaxy, but not on both sides. The particle can only be in one place or the other when I observe it. All of its energy is in one place or the other. Or I can choose to see the light wave going on all sides of the galaxy at once. In this case, the energy is spread all around that galaxy. What I chose today impacts what happened 2 billion years ago to that piece of energy that was traveling past a galaxy which is acting as a gravitational lens to that energy. My mind, my soul, gets to decide how the energy I see reaching today behaved two billion years ago; either as a particle or as a wave but not both. The passage by the galaxy occurred long before there was any people or multicellular life on earth. Yet my decision today determines what I observe happened to that photon 2 billion years ago. The same thing happens in every single quantum experiment ever made. The mind of the experimenter gets to choose what he sees. Matter is obeying consciousness. Matter at its most fundamental level is NOT master of consciousness; consciousness is master of the matter. I see no way to avoid the conclusion that my soul is more real than matter. So if you are a Christian, go out of this world like you actually believe that. Science seems to indicate that.

    While this is not the main point of my article and I know the materialists will howl at me for the above, I felt it important to point out that philosophical materialists are on shakey scientific ground when dealing with Christians who are dying. One more quote on this topic

    Originally posted by Antonella Vannini e Ulisse Di Corpo, "Quantum Mechanics (QM), Syntropy 2007, 1, pag. 119-129 p. 127
    "The delayed choice experiment became possible thanks to the speed of computers which can choose randomly when to activate the detectors between the double slit and the screen. The result is that this choice effects the way in which the photon has gone through the slit (wave/particle), and that this effect operates backwards in time. The first two experiments which verified this model were performed independently in the 1980s in the University of Maryland and Munich, Germany. These experiments showed that the decision to activate the detectors affected the nature of photons backwards in time"

    "Wheeler, noted that it is possible to devise a double slit experiment at the cosmic level using light coming from quasars and a galaxy which operates as a gravitational lens on the way to Earth. This light would generate an interference pattern showing that light has travelled as waves. But if a measurement would be performed before the screen on which the interference pattern takes form, the pattern would dissolve and the photons would change from waves into particles. In other words our choice on how to measure the light coming from a quasar influences the nature of the light (particle/quasar) emitted 10 billion years ago. According to Wheeler this experiment would show that retrocausal effects operate at the quantum level."
    Again, it is the human will/mind/soul that makes the choice. To the best of my knowledge no dog, cat mouse or tardigrade has ever performed a quantum experiment placing themselves into the role of the decider/observer. So those who claim they can be observers who collapse the quantum wavelet, are observationally wrong (there is a recent experiment which indicates that quantum effects might not go up to the macro level and this would make my above statement true). I bolded an interesting point. Critics of Christianity have criticized the idea of original sin. Why would one man's sin affect everyone. Well, retrocausality is a way for our sin to affect Adam and we all would be equally guilty participants in his decision. Given that some say consciousness involves quantum phenomena, one can't rule this idea out based on an argument about us having a macro-sized brain.

    So, materialists, don't argue the point with me, take it up with these physicists. Tell them how wrong they are. Telling me won't remove this important data point. Convincing those physicists of the errors of their ways might remove my argument for the soul's importance to this universe.

    So for the atheist, when you are dealing with Christian cancer patients, don't try to steal their hope and turn them into as hopeless a being you are! That just seems cruel, mean and nasty. I have seen atheists pick at Christian's faith as a Christian was dying as if their atheism were some sort of gospel of good news and that it was important for that person to know there is no afterlife before they die. If materialism is true, what is the point of doing that anyway. Nothing really matters in the long run if philosophical materialism is actually true. It matters not that we die, that a species dies, that wars happen, because it is all just matter behaving as matter behaves. Why rage against injustice? There is no intrinsic value of one piece of matter over another. How can matter be unjust to itself anyway? And it really doesn't matter if some other piece of matter affirms your philosophy or not before it falls apart. What I see is a huge disconnect. Materialists act as if human values are important but their philosophy means there isn't really any such thing--just matter doing what it does. Rocks don't apologize for falling on a sheep and killing it. Sheep don't apologize to the rock for knocking it off the cliff. Materialist's actions show that they believe consciousness is more important than matter.

    Over the 15 years I have had this cancer so far, I have observed loads of things people should not do. These things come from people of all walks of life, from scientists of all philosophical persuasions to average joes of all walks of life. When I first was diagnosed, several scientists wrote me letters or emails telling me that if only I hadn't eaten white bread, I wouldn't have this cancer (I don't eat white bread), or if I hadn't eaten refined sugar(which I admittedly do). That is the blame the patient for his cancer approach to friendship. It is like telling your friend who has lung cancer today--If only you hadn't smoked all those year. What good does that do for that guy? He can't change the past. What the cancer patient is looking for is a way to solve the problem he has and a time machine doesn't seem to be a workable solution. Such 'helpful' people just leave the cancer patient frustrated that the guy saying things like this don't care to understand the problem the patient has today. It doesn't do any good after drilling a dry oil well to say, 'If only you hadn't drilled there!' On a lighter note, I do have a deep, perverse urge to tell everyone that my prostate cancer was caused by having sex with my wife three times a day for my entire life, and thus it is my fault for getting this disease. Let them chew on that for a while. lol

    Then there are the cancer cures we are given, again by all walks of life and by all philosophical positions. My wife and I are in the process of moving and the event which caused this screed was the buyer's realtor waltzed into my house, asked why we were selling and when we told her my cancer was getting out of control, she told me that I could cure my cancer if I ate a chocolate bar with Astaxanthin algae in it. She knows because she gives it to her Parkinson's husband and she is a nurse. The previous week our house cleaner gave me a recipe for curing cancer that was a slurry of vegetables including superbeet, cilantro, potato, broccoli and other things. Guaranteed to cure my cancer. The week before that on my morning walk, a neighbor had told me about a guy who knew all the cancer doctors were out to prevent cures of cancer and he had a diet that actually cures cancer. They offered me his number and I think they thought I was a wee bit suicidal not to ask for that number. My dear wife tells me to accept these things with grace, and I do, but I don't necessarily think gracious thoughts. I think about how fat and poor I would be if I ate every one of those diets, all of which are different and some come with a substantial monetary cost.

    Years ago a geophysicist who worked for me got a cancer in his liver and every 6 months for about 2 years they would remove half his liver only to have the cancer come back. He got very desperate to live (and I don't blame him, he was only 26 years old). We rode a bus each day to work and back and we sat together. What he did was get with a charlatan who charged him money and diagnosed him by looking at the iris of his eye to tell of his health and what fish he ought to eat. So Cliff ate fish. Smelly fish. I was never going to tell him that what he was doing wasn't going to work. That is like the atheist trying to remove hope. Cliff was very hopeful about this fish diet/iris guru. I let him have his hope. But Cliff smelled like a fish for the last six months of his life. I have sworn for years, I will not smell like a fish as I go out of this world. Diet fads don't cure cancer. Don't tell your cancer friends about the latest internet diet craze.

    An engineer I knew got desperate to live after the docs told him there was nothing more they could do. A friend got him onto a service that provides a cancer curing diet for a lot of money and my friend died about the time the docs said he would, lacking some money spent on that useless diet.

    A scientist friend sent me articles on how Avocado extracts can slow the growth of my type of cancer, prostate cancer. The article doesn't say where to get the extract or what the dose should be? Of what value is that to me? He sent similar articles claiming dewberry extract cures cancer; rosemary cures cancer; Kale cures cancer; pomegranate, green tea, broccoli and turmeric do the same. But each article again left me with no information on how to get the extract from each plant, how much to eat of it etc. They were useless and sadly I had to make the guy mad to get him to stop sending me stuff like that. Most of the experiments with these plants are done on men with lower grade tumors than I had, and tumors that were localized. Mine was a high grade tumor already spreading into my gut in 2003 which is why the doctor told me I wouldn't likely live past 2005. So most of the studies didn't even apply to my situation.

    I looked up the stats back then and I had less than a 50% chance of living those 2 years. Somehow I have managed to extend the time and I am thankful to God for the time I have had. I started 4 companies, had an invention that did ok, lived in China and learned Mandarin, went to Tibet and Antarctica. My life has been good and no one should feel sorry for me. But I am at that stage now where the docs are referring me to the phase 1 trial group, which means, they don't have much in their arsenal any longer that is known to work. I still think I will outlive my lastest prognostication of my death date--which will be the third one I will outlive. Don't know if I will outlive a fourth one. I have used my time well and will use what time I have as well as I can. But everyone dies and everyone should think about what might be out there past death. Paschal's wager looks a bit different from my current situation than it did intellectually years ago. Whatever the reality is, I shall within a few years find out and I have placed my bet on Jesus Christ for lots of reasons. Ever wonder why no one says " expletive Buddha"? Or Confucious on a stick? Just an observation from living around the world. Chinese curses involve animals not religious figures.

    Two more gripes then I am done. If you are a Christian, don't tell cancer patients that if you came to their church their pastor could heal you. I sat down at M. D. Anderson and a lady next to me was there with her sister. She told me to come to her church to be healed. I wanted to ask, why your sister is here rather than there, but didn't. I was polite. Anyway she would not take my "Everyone dies" answer and stop begging me to go to her church. While I do believe in miracles, it is a fact that everyone in that church will eventually die and not be healed by the pastor. As Christians we know that it is appointed unto man once to die. We should face it like we understand our theology. Don't tell the patient that the cancer is because of his sin. "For we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.' Or that if the patient only had enough faith he could be cured---everyone dies.

    My final gripe was a guy who found out I had cancer and told me I would be fine. .How did he know? This was at a time when my cancer was starting to get out of control, and while I will be fine in heaven, I don't think that is quite what he meant. This is merely a way for him to avoid the ugly reality of this world that we all die. It was a dismissal of me and my situation so he wouldn't have to think about the awfulness of the reality. While I don't want to play the victim card except to telephone solicitors, I don't want to be dismissed as if what I have is a hang-nail either. Just say, sorry to hear that ask a question about it or change the topic to football. Treat the cancer patient like anyone else in your life. When Wil Provine, an evangelistically atheist professor at Columbia University, got brain cancer, he and I were in the middle of a discussion at the deepest point of my doubting Christianity. I emailed back saying bluntly that I am not going to treat you any differently, to which he replied, I would be mad at you if you did. On this last point, my atheist friend and I can agree.

  • #2
    Much appreciated, G - thanks for sharing. I only skimmed this, because I have to be somewhere very shortly, but will read this carefully later this evening.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks for sharing, Glen. My uncle outlived a couple predictions from an inoperable brain tumor - by deciding that, since chemo would make him feel awful and only give him 6 months anyway, he'd just live the rest of his life doing what he enjoyed doing (watercolor). I think it's stress from a divorce that brought it back and eventually did him in. Last I checked, death had a pretty high success rate, and we're all going to check out someday. It remains up to us as to how we choose to face it.

      Go with God, Glen. I'm glad you were here.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by grmorton View Post
        I don't know quite where to put this but it does have some science in it. If someone wants to move it that is ok.

        I am writing this knowing it will make no difference in anything because no one listens and changes their mind on anything anyway. I do this because it is cathartic for me. I do this because I have had one too many frustrating encounters with those who don't have cancer. People seem not to know how to deal with someone with cancer.

        I spent my life exploring for oil and learned to be blunt about facts--I either succeeded or failed, few gray areas. I had to have the bluntness in the face of a $200 million dry hole to tell my employers that I had just lost them that much money. That builds a thick skin. So what I will say will appear blunt to many. It is just my way of dealing with success and failure.

        First I want to say something to the Cancer patient, then to those who are dealing with them. When you are told you have cancer you will go into a deep depression thinking all you have done is worthless. That will last a while, but pull yourself out of it and don't play the victim card, the woe is me card with everyone. Doing that will drive everyone away from you. No one likes being around needy people, whose needs and problem simply can't be fixed. Telling people all your problems, leaves them feeling helpless because there is precisely nothing they can do to really fix the situation--yes, they can adjust a pillow and get you a drink, but they can't cure you. Both of you know that and it leaves the non-cancer patient feeling helpless, useless, guilty and bad all at the same time. Over time he will avoid you. To the cancer patient, be as friendly and positive minded as you can be--you are still alive to interact with your family and that is still a big gift. Whining about what you won't have after you are dead is like whining about not being a billionaire; no one can help you get there. [note: there is an useful exception to not playing the woe is me card; it does get telephone solicitors off the phone quickly when you tell them about your disease]

        If you are a Christian, believing in the afterlife, we are going to a better place. Go out of this world acting like you actually believe there is a heaven. To get incredibly desperate and try desperate remedies as you leave this world betrays a lack of faith; a lack of grace. Don't grasp greedily at the quack cures and charlatan offers of weird diets to cure your cancer. Years ago a couple whose wife was dying of breast cancer (a cancer my wife had had), asked my scientific opinion on a cure they wanted to try. After listening to this guy's tape saying how he could cure everything wrong with mankind, I told them what I thought of it. The man said, "So you wouldn't let your wife get on it?" to which I replied. I would tell her what I thought of it if she asked, and take her there if she wanted to try it. I don't believe in crushing hopes of the dying even if I think it is misplaced hope. The couple tried it and it didn't work. Such cures never seem to work. More on that below.

        It remains to be seen how desperate I will become, but I do believe deeply now after decades of doubt about Christianity, I now accept it with a firmness, and with some evidence. My atheist friends seem to dismiss the biggest scientific evidence that our mentality, our qualia, our spirit or soul, is somehow more important than the external world the philosophical materialist believes is all there is. I define the believer in philosophical materialism as this partial paraphrase of the internet definition gives : the doctrine that nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications. Consciousness and human will are entirely caused by material agency (causation). This philosophy rules out God, gods, miracles, afterlife, souls etc. Yet the philosophy is disproven by one simple scientific fact that few note. Matter is subject to Soul, mind or whatever you want to call it. It isn't consciousness that is caused by matter; it seems to be closer to the opposite. Steven Weinberg notes how science should work, as opposed to how quantum actually does work.



        If I set up my equipment to measure light energy passing by a galaxy 2 billion light years away, and thus two billion years ago, I can chose to see it as a particle (photon) that goes on one side or the other side of the galaxy, but not on both sides. The particle can only be in one place or the other when I observe it. All of its energy is in one place or the other. Or I can choose to see the light wave going on all sides of the galaxy at once. In this case, the energy is spread all around that galaxy. What I chose today impacts what happened 2 billion years ago to that piece of energy that was traveling past a galaxy which is acting as a gravitational lens to that energy. My mind, my soul, gets to decide how the energy I see reaching today behaved two billion years ago; either as a particle or as a wave but not both. The passage by the galaxy occurred long before there was any people or multicellular life on earth. Yet my decision today determines what I observe happened to that photon 2 billion years ago. The same thing happens in every single quantum experiment ever made. The mind of the experimenter gets to choose what he sees. Matter is obeying consciousness. Matter at its most fundamental level is NOT master of consciousness; consciousness is master of the matter. I see no way to avoid the conclusion that my soul is more real than matter. So if you are a Christian, go out of this world like you actually believe that. Science seems to indicate that.

        While this is not the main point of my article and I know the materialists will howl at me for the above, I felt it important to point out that philosophical materialists are on shakey scientific ground when dealing with Christians who are dying. One more quote on this topic



        Again, it is the human will/mind/soul that makes the choice. To the best of my knowledge no dog, cat mouse or tardigrade has ever performed a quantum experiment placing themselves into the role of the decider/observer. So those who claim they can be observers who collapse the quantum wavelet, are observationally wrong (there is a recent experiment which indicates that quantum effects might not go up to the macro level and this would make my above statement true). I bolded an interesting point. Critics of Christianity have criticized the idea of original sin. Why would one man's sin affect everyone. Well, retrocausality is a way for our sin to affect Adam and we all would be equally guilty participants in his decision. Given that some say consciousness involves quantum phenomena, one can't rule this idea out based on an argument about us having a macro-sized brain.

        So, materialists, don't argue the point with me, take it up with these physicists. Tell them how wrong they are. Telling me won't remove this important data point. Convincing those physicists of the errors of their ways might remove my argument for the soul's importance to this universe.

        So for the atheist, when you are dealing with Christian cancer patients, don't try to steal their hope and turn them into as hopeless a being you are! That just seems cruel, mean and nasty. I have seen atheists pick at Christian's faith as a Christian was dying as if their atheism were some sort of gospel of good news and that it was important for that person to know there is no afterlife before they die. If materialism is true, what is the point of doing that anyway. Nothing really matters in the long run if philosophical materialism is actually true. It matters not that we die, that a species dies, that wars happen, because it is all just matter behaving as matter behaves. Why rage against injustice? There is no intrinsic value of one piece of matter over another. How can matter be unjust to itself anyway? And it really doesn't matter if some other piece of matter affirms your philosophy or not before it falls apart. What I see is a huge disconnect. Materialists act as if human values are important but their philosophy means there isn't really any such thing--just matter doing what it does. Rocks don't apologize for falling on a sheep and killing it. Sheep don't apologize to the rock for knocking it off the cliff. Materialist's actions show that they believe consciousness is more important than matter.

        Over the 15 years I have had this cancer so far, I have observed loads of things people should not do. These things come from people of all walks of life, from scientists of all philosophical persuasions to average joes of all walks of life. When I first was diagnosed, several scientists wrote me letters or emails telling me that if only I hadn't eaten white bread, I wouldn't have this cancer (I don't eat white bread), or if I hadn't eaten refined sugar(which I admittedly do). That is the blame the patient for his cancer approach to friendship. It is like telling your friend who has lung cancer today--If only you hadn't smoked all those year. What good does that do for that guy? He can't change the past. What the cancer patient is looking for is a way to solve the problem he has and a time machine doesn't seem to be a workable solution. Such 'helpful' people just leave the cancer patient frustrated that the guy saying things like this don't care to understand the problem the patient has today. It doesn't do any good after drilling a dry oil well to say, 'If only you hadn't drilled there!' On a lighter note, I do have a deep, perverse urge to tell everyone that my prostate cancer was caused by having sex with my wife three times a day for my entire life, and thus it is my fault for getting this disease. Let them chew on that for a while. lol

        Then there are the cancer cures we are given, again by all walks of life and by all philosophical positions. My wife and I are in the process of moving and the event which caused this screed was the buyer's realtor waltzed into my house, asked why we were selling and when we told her my cancer was getting out of control, she told me that I could cure my cancer if I ate a chocolate bar with Astaxanthin algae in it. She knows because she gives it to her Parkinson's husband and she is a nurse. The previous week our house cleaner gave me a recipe for curing cancer that was a slurry of vegetables including superbeet, cilantro, potato, broccoli and other things. Guaranteed to cure my cancer. The week before that on my morning walk, a neighbor had told me about a guy who knew all the cancer doctors were out to prevent cures of cancer and he had a diet that actually cures cancer. They offered me his number and I think they thought I was a wee bit suicidal not to ask for that number. My dear wife tells me to accept these things with grace, and I do, but I don't necessarily think gracious thoughts. I think about how fat and poor I would be if I ate every one of those diets, all of which are different and some come with a substantial monetary cost.

        Years ago a geophysicist who worked for me got a cancer in his liver and every 6 months for about 2 years they would remove half his liver only to have the cancer come back. He got very desperate to live (and I don't blame him, he was only 26 years old). We rode a bus each day to work and back and we sat together. What he did was get with a charlatan who charged him money and diagnosed him by looking at the iris of his eye to tell of his health and what fish he ought to eat. So Cliff ate fish. Smelly fish. I was never going to tell him that what he was doing wasn't going to work. That is like the atheist trying to remove hope. Cliff was very hopeful about this fish diet/iris guru. I let him have his hope. But Cliff smelled like a fish for the last six months of his life. I have sworn for years, I will not smell like a fish as I go out of this world. Diet fads don't cure cancer. Don't tell your cancer friends about the latest internet diet craze.

        An engineer I knew got desperate to live after the docs told him there was nothing more they could do. A friend got him onto a service that provides a cancer curing diet for a lot of money and my friend died about the time the docs said he would, lacking some money spent on that useless diet.

        A scientist friend sent me articles on how Avocado extracts can slow the growth of my type of cancer, prostate cancer. The article doesn't say where to get the extract or what the dose should be? Of what value is that to me? He sent similar articles claiming dewberry extract cures cancer; rosemary cures cancer; Kale cures cancer; pomegranate, green tea, broccoli and turmeric do the same. But each article again left me with no information on how to get the extract from each plant, how much to eat of it etc. They were useless and sadly I had to make the guy mad to get him to stop sending me stuff like that. Most of the experiments with these plants are done on men with lower grade tumors than I had, and tumors that were localized. Mine was a high grade tumor already spreading into my gut in 2003 which is why the doctor told me I wouldn't likely live past 2005. So most of the studies didn't even apply to my situation.

        I looked up the stats back then and I had less than a 50% chance of living those 2 years. Somehow I have managed to extend the time and I am thankful to God for the time I have had. I started 4 companies, had an invention that did ok, lived in China and learned Mandarin, went to Tibet and Antarctica. My life has been good and no one should feel sorry for me. But I am at that stage now where the docs are referring me to the phase 1 trial group, which means, they don't have much in their arsenal any longer that is known to work. I still think I will outlive my lastest prognostication of my death date--which will be the third one I will outlive. Don't know if I will outlive a fourth one. I have used my time well and will use what time I have as well as I can. But everyone dies and everyone should think about what might be out there past death. Paschal's wager looks a bit different from my current situation than it did intellectually years ago. Whatever the reality is, I shall within a few years find out and I have placed my bet on Jesus Christ for lots of reasons. Ever wonder why no one says " expletive Buddha"? Or Confucious on a stick? Just an observation from living around the world. Chinese curses involve animals not religious figures.

        Two more gripes then I am done. If you are a Christian, don't tell cancer patients that if you came to their church their pastor could heal you. I sat down at M. D. Anderson and a lady next to me was there with her sister. She told me to come to her church to be healed. I wanted to ask, why your sister is here rather than there, but didn't. I was polite. Anyway she would not take my "Everyone dies" answer and stop begging me to go to her church. While I do believe in miracles, it is a fact that everyone in that church will eventually die and not be healed by the pastor. As Christians we know that it is appointed unto man once to die. We should face it like we understand our theology. Don't tell the patient that the cancer is because of his sin. "For we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.' Or that if the patient only had enough faith he could be cured---everyone dies.

        My final gripe was a guy who found out I had cancer and told me I would be fine. .How did he know? This was at a time when my cancer was starting to get out of control, and while I will be fine in heaven, I don't think that is quite what he meant. This is merely a way for him to avoid the ugly reality of this world that we all die. It was a dismissal of me and my situation so he wouldn't have to think about the awfulness of the reality. While I don't want to play the victim card except to telephone solicitors, I don't want to be dismissed as if what I have is a hang-nail either. Just say, sorry to hear that ask a question about it or change the topic to football. Treat the cancer patient like anyone else in your life. When Wil Provine, an evangelistically atheist professor at Columbia University, got brain cancer, he and I were in the middle of a discussion at the deepest point of my doubting Christianity. I emailed back saying bluntly that I am not going to treat you any differently, to which he replied, I would be mad at you if you did. On this last point, my atheist friend and I can agree.
        Interesting reflection of the journey will all take without reasons light.

        I am still here in Tweb, but forced by the administration to wear the anchor title of 'agnostic.' I am not an agnostic I am a Theist


        Moderated By: mossy

        Frank, you are arguing moderation here. If you wish to do so, then you need to take it to the Padded Room.

        To set the record straight, you admitted in the past that you are agnostic. So the blame for your faith des is on you.

        ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
        Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

        Last edited by mossrose; 08-19-2018, 09:30 AM.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          Interesting reflection of the journey will all take without reasons light.

          I am still here in Tweb, but forced by the administration to wear the anchor title of 'agnostic.' I am not an agnostic I am a Theist
          Hi Frank, hope you are well. As usual you don't understand what I wrote. I gave precise reasons for why I think there is a soul and you act as if I didn't. If we have a soul, then that opens loads of other questions. Maybe it is easier to dismiss the data rather than think about it. You could disagree with my reasons and give reasons for why you think I am wrong, but you don't. You just act as if there is nothing reason can give us about this journey; as if I had said nothing about the quantum problems in relation to the intimate way human observers are involved in quantum. This is why I find this place useless for actual discussion of issues.


          I would suggest that you consider that if you think nothing can be known about the afterlife from this world, then maybe you are indeed an agnostic. (agnostic means can't know). A little self-reflection should help you with your problem of labels. you ought to give it a try.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by grmorton View Post
            Hi Frank, hope you are well. As usual you don't understand what I wrote. I gave precise reasons for why I think there is a soul and you act as if I didn't. If we have a soul, then that opens loads of other questions. Maybe it is easier to dismiss the data rather than think about it. You could disagree with my reasons and give reasons for why you think I am wrong, but you don't. You just act as if there is nothing reason can give us about this journey; as if I had said nothing about the quantum problems in relation to the intimate way human observers are involved in quantum. This is why I find this place useless for actual discussion of issues.


            I would suggest that you consider that if you think nothing can be known about the afterlife from this world, then maybe you are indeed an agnostic. (agnostic means can't know). A little self-reflection should help you with your problem of labels. you ought to give it a try.
            I have always acknowledge the existence of the soul and the journey of the soul beyond this physical world. Our journey when we pass from this world is indeed 'beyond reasons light,' and in the hands of God. I do not judge the journey of others, nor make claims to the certainty of my own journey beyond this life. I do believe our sincerity of the search and choices in this world effects our journeys in other worlds beyond this world.

            No I am not agnostic concerning the existence of God and the soul.
            Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-19-2018, 06:53 AM.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #7
              Glenn, I lost both parents to cancer, and several other friends and relatives over the years. I also went through something similar when I had a life threatening disease and came close to dying a couple of times in the hospital. I agree totally with your OP. Live the hope you have as a Christian. My father and mother did. I think that I did too. I never gave up hope but at the same time I was ready if things went the other way. I think God gives us a peace at times like that and I pray for that peace upon you too. Not giving up, but being ready and knowing that if you die you will still live and be with the Lord.

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks Cow poke, bad pig and sparko. I appreciate your comments. Frank, I left a note for you over in comparative religions.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Glen, I have terminal Colorectal cancer with a couple years projected life span. I did not respond to the diagnosis as did you, with "deep depression." I was/am not happy with the diagnosis, but I trust God to deal correctly with me. My first response to the oncologist was to say, "I will accept no treatment that is not covered by my insurance, I will not leave my wife with a crippling medical debt. I am dying but God is with me. I could experience a miracle and be cured, but whatever does happen I choose to trust my savior.
                  Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                    Glen, I have terminal Colorectal cancer with a couple years projected life span. I did not respond to the diagnosis as did you, with "deep depression." I was/am not happy with the diagnosis, but I trust God to deal correctly with me. My first response to the oncologist was to say, "I will accept no treatment that is not covered by my insurance, I will not leave my wife with a crippling medical debt. I am dying but God is with me. I could experience a miracle and be cured, but whatever does happen I choose to trust my savior.
                    That is how I aspire to handle it when my time comes. I just pray to have the strength to do so.


                    Glenn, you are in my prayers

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                      Glen, I have terminal Colorectal cancer with a couple years projected life span. I did not respond to the diagnosis as did you, with "deep depression." I was/am not happy with the diagnosis, but I trust God to deal correctly with me. My first response to the oncologist was to say, "I will accept no treatment that is not covered by my insurance, I will not leave my wife with a crippling medical debt. I am dying but God is with me. I could experience a miracle and be cured, but whatever does happen I choose to trust my savior.
                      Jedidiah, I am very sorry to hear of that diagnosis. I certainly understand your decision because I struggle with that issue as well--how much to spend on me; how much is enough before medicine becomes mere torment. My quality of life has dropped over the past 2 years dramatically and at some point, I will say no more and go with the natural course of the disease. But I am not quite there yet. These are tough end of life questions. My heart goes out to you and your family. Just remember the docs might be wrong about your life time, either direction. I have used my time to get my family relationships patched up. I definitely admire your decision about your family

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        That is how I aspire to handle it when my time comes. I just pray to have the strength to do so.


                        Glenn, you are in my prayers
                        Thanks rogue. I just wish I could have the energy I had just 2 years ago. I am fatiqued all the time and can't do hardly anything I used to do for very long. I tell my friends I have gone in 3 years from a guy working 13 hour days to one who has half a day worth of energy.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by grmorton View Post
                          Thanks rogue. I just wish I could have the energy I had just 2 years ago. I am fatiqued all the time and can't do hardly anything I used to do for very long. I tell my friends I have gone in 3 years from a guy working 13 hour days to one who has half a day worth of energy.
                          Not to diminish your sorrow, but I just wanted to say that having been able to work 13 hour days for a significant part of your career is very impressive. Half of that would still be considered a full time job.

                          I'm sorry to hear of the cancer grmorton. I hope the best for you, no matter the prognosis. Prayers.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by grmorton View Post
                            Thanks rogue. I just wish I could have the energy I had just 2 years ago. I am fatiqued all the time and can't do hardly anything I used to do for very long. I tell my friends I have gone in 3 years from a guy working 13 hour days to one who has half a day worth of energy.
                            I've written elsewhere about my Pastor, under whom I surrendered to the ministry nearly 50 years ago. Over the last several years, he was declining in health pretty quickly because of cancer.

                            When I first started out in the ministry, I remember 'getting in trouble' in Church (doing something stupid as a young youth minister) and calling my Pastor, crying on his shoulder, and seeking his advice. One day, about 20 years into my ministry, my wife asked "when was the last time you called Pastor Robby?" It dawned on me that I hadn't called him in a long time, and it hit me that I only called him when I was "in trouble" or needed advice.

                            So I began a practice of calling occasionally when things "were good" just to catch up, and tell him I appreciated him. I would make sure, if he was anywhere near, to go see him at least every other year just to spend some time with him.

                            The last 6 months, it was obvious he was nearing end of life, and had rejected chemo and radiation and such because it only made him feel like crap. (crappier?) I started visiting him at least once a month - he lives in Tyler, so it's about a 7 hour round trip, but well worth it. The last time I visited him, he seemed to "rally", and we had a really great conversation, doing the "memory lane" thing and laughing about this and that. I went home that last time, thinking what a great visit that was, and wondering how many more I'd be able to share with him. That very night, he fell and hit his head, and, for the most part, became comatose. He passed a few days later in his sleep.

                            We all say it, Glenn, but unfortunately, many of us never take it seriously. Time is so precious, and we never know how much we have. I know I only "knew" you in real life for that couple of days, but I enjoyed meeting you, and appreciate the kind of character you are and convictions you hold.

                            Your attitude toward passing is so much like my Pastor, who knew where he was going, and was such an inspiration to me and my family.

                            You are appreciated, sir.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              We haven't really overlapped much here, but i'm sorry to hear of all the challenges you face.

                              I've had family members (including my own father) who wouldn't have been satisfied unless they fought their cancer up until the day before they died. And i've had others who accepted their fate early and with equanimity. The key thing i learned from all of it is that you have to know who you are, what that means in terms of which course is right for you, and to accept that without regrets. It sounds like you're already there, and so are over what can be the worst challenge.
                              "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

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