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On the Etiquette of dying

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  • #31
    Hello Glenn,


    Originally posted by grmorton View Post
    So for the atheist, when you are dealing with Christian cancer patients, don't try to steal their hope …
    

It seems that we are all approaching the age where we half say "goodbye" to each other.

    I agree with your sentiment. There are times when a person really needs to shut up, appreciate the circumstance and just listen, and help. Who is right and who is wrong ceases to be important.

    I think to an extent you are surrendering yourself to what you believe reality is. Which is good. I think we can all do that. There comes a point where we all need to do it. A couple of years ago I was diagnosed with low grade prostate cancer that was spreading beyond the prostate. In a very real sense, I was lucky because that's all it was. As the doctors pointed out, I'm more likely to die of a heart attack or a stroke. And the radiation therapy seems to have worked.

    Yet, that diagnosis forced me to make some quick changes to my life. Thus I retired, worked hard to get renovations done to my house, and am spending more time with the nippers and their children, my siblings, as well as with friends.

    I've always been aware of my mortality, even as a youngster and now am very aware that the end is fast approaching. Just as you are, I think, working to surrender yourself to your reality, so do I. Even a low grade cancer sharpens awareness and helps one focus.

    Despite it's ups and downs, life has given me a lot and I appreciate that. Existence has been my eternity once I lost my faith. I'm o.k. with that. If it turns out that I am wrong and you are right, then I hope (your) God understands.
    It remains to be seen how desperate I will become, ….
    

Yes. We can all be brave in our thoughts, until we really, really have to face something.



    What is left? To go on as before and hope that I retain reasonable health. And when I go through death, I hope I have the ability to show others how to die with dignity.

    But look, who knows what happens at any stage in life. I've enjoyed knowing you and others here to the extent that I have.

    Even Jorge. Where is that old bugga, and what is he doing?

    So take 'care'. Hopefully I see you around some more. And if not, it’s been a real pleasure.
    Last edited by rwatts; 08-21-2018, 04:10 AM.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      That is how I aspire to handle it when my time comes.
      C'mon rogue, you will be imortalized as a fossil.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by grmorton View Post
        I told my son, a preacher like you, that what I left out of my OP was that the patient knows who is praying for them and who cares. Those people are the ones who check in from time to time to see how you are. Most people who say they are praying never check in ever.
        Isn't that the truth. People always seem eager to help and pray for the first couple of weeks, and then the next "crisis" rears its head, and your family is pushed to the back burner, and eventually off the stove top entirely.

        (And in the interest of not being self-righteous, I can't say I have never been guilty of doing the same.)
        Last edited by Mountain Man; 08-21-2018, 07:14 AM.
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • #34
          I try to do like Cowpoke said, and say at least a quick prayer right when I tell someone I will pray for them (especially in posts on forums or facebook). I admit I am guilty of forgetting to do it later, to my shame. At least if I do it right then, I have not inadvertently lied to them.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by grmorton View Post
            I told my son, a preacher like you, that what I left out of my OP was that the patient knows who is praying for them and who cares. Those people are the ones who check in from time to time to see how you are. Most people who say they are praying never check in ever.
            As an introvert, I'm terrible about checking in. Most people on my prayer list probably don't even know they're on it.
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

            Comment


            • #36
              Glenn,

              I remember from your posts years ago, that you were fighting some sort of cancer. I thought the treatments must have been successful as you continued to post and work. I'm sorry to hear that the tide has turned in the fight...

              I recently (in the last three months) lost my dear aunt to lung cancer, and another woman who was as close to me as an aunt to a off the wall cousin of leukemia (her son has been my best friend for over 50 years). And another close friend who is currently battling stage 4 lung cancer. As you said, cancer truly is a "real obscenity". (I truly fear for my dad who has smoked his whole life.)

              Please know that I have added you to my prayer list and will continue to hold you and your family up in prayer.

              On a different note, I want to take the time to personally thank you for the work you've done in writing articles explaining how a person of faith could hold onto it and still believe in an old earth...and that it was possible to hold onto that same faith and still believe that evolution was a possible (even probable) explanation for the world we see. I downloaded all your articles you had on the web before you took them down, (unfortunately, I lost them when my computer hard drive crashed). I have passed on what little I was able to glean and remember from those articles to my children who have struggled with the same issues.

              Your fight against the obscenity and your willingness to share your expertise have been a real inspiration to many of us. I'm sorry you have to fight this fight, but know many of us are praying for you.

              Stay strong my friend!
              "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

              "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                Glenn,

                I remember from your posts years ago, that you were fighting some sort of cancer. I thought the treatments must have been successful as you continued to post and work. I'm sorry to hear that the tide has turned in the fight...

                I recently (in the last three months) lost my dear aunt to lung cancer, and another woman who was as close to me as an aunt to a off the wall cousin of leukemia (her son has been my best friend for over 50 years). And another close friend who is currently battling stage 4 lung cancer. As you said, cancer truly is a "real obscenity". (I truly fear for my dad who has smoked his whole life.)

                Please know that I have added you to my prayer list and will continue to hold you and your family up in prayer.

                On a different note, I want to take the time to personally thank you for the work you've done in writing articles explaining how a person of faith could hold onto it and still believe in an old earth...and that it was possible to hold onto that same faith and still believe that evolution was a possible (even probable) explanation for the world we see. I downloaded all your articles you had on the web before you took them down, (unfortunately, I lost them when my computer hard drive crashed). I have passed on what little I was able to glean and remember from those articles to my children who have struggled with the same issues.

                Your fight against the obscenity and your willingness to share your expertise have been a real inspiration to many of us. I'm sorry you have to fight this fight, but know many of us are praying for you.

                Stay strong my friend!
                At the weekend at the Ranch with Glenn - I don't remember who said it, maybe Jim - "always go back to the cross".

                I use that frequently in preaching -- we can get all caught up in debate and argument and supposition - YEC vs OEC vs whoever, but "always go back to the cross".
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by rwatts View Post
                  Hello Glenn,


                  

It seems that we are all approaching the age where we half say "goodbye" to each other.

                  I agree with your sentiment. There are times when a person really needs to shut up, appreciate the circumstance and just listen, and help. Who is right and who is wrong ceases to be important.

                  I think to an extent you are surrendering yourself to what you believe reality is. Which is good. I think we can all do that. There comes a point where we all need to do it. A couple of years ago I was diagnosed with low grade prostate cancer that was spreading beyond the prostate. In a very real sense, I was lucky because that's all it was. As the doctors pointed out, I'm more likely to die of a heart attack or a stroke. And the radiation therapy seems to have worked.

                  Yet, that diagnosis forced me to make some quick changes to my life. Thus I retired, worked hard to get renovations done to my house, and am spending more time with the nippers and their children, my siblings, as well as with friends.

                  I've always been aware of my mortality, even as a youngster and now am very aware that the end is fast approaching. Just as you are, I think, working to surrender yourself to your reality, so do I. Even a low grade cancer sharpens awareness and helps one focus.

                  Despite it's ups and downs, life has given me a lot and I appreciate that. Existence has been my eternity once I lost my faith. I'm o.k. with that. If it turns out that I am wrong and you are right, then I hope (your) God understands.
                  


Yes. We can all be brave in our thoughts, until we really, really have to face something.



                  What is left? To go on as before and hope that I retain reasonable health. And when I go through death, I hope I have the ability to show others how to die with dignity.

                  But look, who knows what happens at any stage in life. I've enjoyed knowing you and others here to the extent that I have.

                  Even Jorge. Where is that old bugga, and what is he doing?

                  So take 'care'. Hopefully I see you around some more. And if not, it’s been a real pleasure.
                  Watts, sorry to hear about the cancer, but as you say, it focuses the mind--kind a like a hangman's noose. lol Live well my friend.


                  Added via edit. Watts, there is an interesting conundrum for those of us who are realizing that our time is short. If there is nothing out there after life, then nothing we did means a gol darn thing, not even if we are emperor of the Roman empire. The only way for anything we do on earth to really have any meaning is for there to be an afterlife. I keep going back to physics. If human consciousness is nothing special; then why does quantum require that observer as Weinberg said in my OP. Why is it impossible to formulate the fundamental relations between the fundamental particles without a reference to what a conscious mind choses. To me, this is a HUGE clue that consciousness is above this universe and thus our 'souls' have an importance way beyond what modern science places on them. If we have a soul, then questions of the afterlife naturally follow. I have had 15 years with this disease to think about these issues.
                  Last edited by grmorton; 08-21-2018, 01:25 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    I learned some time ago, when you tell somebody you're going to pray for them, do it right then.

                    (this works better in person)

                    A) they know you prayed for them because they heard it
                    2) you're more likely to remember to pray for them in the future, because you actually took the time to do it when asked (or offered)
                    C) if they weren't serious when they asked you to pray for them, they won't waste your time in the future because they know you'll actually pray for them right there on the spot.

                    I have a Pastor friend in town who is in 'end of life' - he has some kind of complicated cousin of Lou Gherig's disease, and is losing mobility, but his mind is still sharp. Eventually, it is anticipated he will no longer have the upper body strength to breathe. It breaks my heart, because he has been such a vibrant and active Pastor, and now he's in a motorized wheel chair.

                    Every couple weeks, I round up a couple other pastors, and we take fajitas to his house, and get him to tell his stories. He's a PhD, is published, and is quite an interesting fellow.

                    My youngest daughter is a hospice nurse - has been for about 7 years now - and she just has a real heart for ministering to people in that situation. She has a green light from her boss at Hospice to minister in Jesus' name as she sees fit.

                    You're on our prayer list at Church, Glenn... and if you're up to me bringing you fajitas, PM me!
                    I know you mean it cowpoke, but I wouldn't put you through the drive. We are about to move to College station in a month, so, if you happen to wander by on some other more important business, let me know (I will pm you my new email address when I get it) and I will buy you fajitas. Sadly, chemo made everything taste worse than it used to. But on the good side, I have lost some much needed to lose weight. lol

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      Isn't that the truth. People always seem eager to help and pray for the first couple of weeks, and then the next "crisis" rears its head, and your family is pushed to the back burner, and eventually off the stove top entirely.

                      (And in the interest of not being self-righteous, I can't say I have never been guilty of doing the same.)
                      Agreed, and that self same guilt applies to me too. It is funny how we only learn important lessons when the hour is late.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                        Glenn,

                        I remember from your posts years ago, that you were fighting some sort of cancer. I thought the treatments must have been successful as you continued to post and work. I'm sorry to hear that the tide has turned in the fight...

                        I recently (in the last three months) lost my dear aunt to lung cancer, and another woman who was as close to me as an aunt to a off the wall cousin of leukemia (her son has been my best friend for over 50 years). And another close friend who is currently battling stage 4 lung cancer. As you said, cancer truly is a "real obscenity". (I truly fear for my dad who has smoked his whole life.)

                        Please know that I have added you to my prayer list and will continue to hold you and your family up in prayer.

                        On a different note, I want to take the time to personally thank you for the work you've done in writing articles explaining how a person of faith could hold onto it and still believe in an old earth...and that it was possible to hold onto that same faith and still believe that evolution was a possible (even probable) explanation for the world we see. I downloaded all your articles you had on the web before you took them down, (unfortunately, I lost them when my computer hard drive crashed). I have passed on what little I was able to glean and remember from those articles to my children who have struggled with the same issues.

                        Your fight against the obscenity and your willingness to share your expertise have been a real inspiration to many of us. I'm sorry you have to fight this fight, but know many of us are praying for you.

                        Stay strong my friend!
                        Littlejoe, you honor me with your words. Thank you. I got the cancer in 2003 when I moved back from Scotland. the diagnosing doctor was yelling at me, wanting to know who my old doctor was, because he said I would be his first patient to die since PSA came in. He wanted to yell at my old doctor. It was government health care in the UK--Thanks for nothing National Health Service. Anyway, he said statistics for me said I have about a 50-50 of making 2005 and almost assuredly gone by 2008. But after surgery, the surgeon said he thought he got it all, so I went off to live in China and when I came back in 2006 my cancer came back with me and in 2007 I had radiation and for a year it looked like it was gone, but in 2008, it came back and the doctors said I had about 5 years to live. In 2016 the cancer got out of control and I had chemo and was told had 2-3 years left. I think I will make another year baring collisions with Mack Trucks. I just rarely mentioned the cancer; living life is so much more important than whining. So, like the poor, my cancer is always with me. I pretty much left the C/E debate in 2009 after my trip to Antarctica, and I have written 2 monstrous volumes and two addendums on my family history--I got very interested in the stories of my grandmother's ancestors and what they did. Go to Worldcat.org and look up The lives of Morton ancestors and Unscrambling the McBrides. I have enjoyed finding all the foibles and sins of my ancestors and tell my sons that even if it takes 200 years, their sins will find them out. And man have I found their secrets out I hope to give them an incentive to stay on the straight and narrow.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by grmorton View Post
                          Watts, sorry to hear about the cancer, but as you say, it focuses the mind--kind a like a hangman's noose. lol Live well my friend.


                          Added via edit. Watts, there is an interesting conundrum for those of us who are realizing that our time is short. If there is nothing out there after life, then nothing we did means a gol darn thing, not even if we are emperor of the Roman empire. The only way for anything we do on earth to really have any meaning is for there to be an afterlife. I keep going back to physics. If human consciousness is nothing special; then why does quantum require that observer as Weinberg said in my OP. Why is it impossible to formulate the fundamental relations between the fundamental particles without a reference to what a conscious mind choses. To me, this is a HUGE clue that consciousness is above this universe and thus our 'souls' have an importance way beyond what modern science places on them. If we have a soul, then questions of the afterlife naturally follow. I have had 15 years with this disease to think about these issues.
                          Consciousness (an observer) being a requirement in quantum mechanics does seem to be odd in a universe without a God. It at least points to some intelligence behind the universe, doesn't it?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by grmorton View Post
                            Watts, sorry to hear about the cancer, but as you say, it focuses the mind--kind a like a hangman's noose. lol Live well my friend.


                            Added via edit. Watts, there is an interesting conundrum for those of us who are realizing that our time is short. If there is nothing out there after life, then nothing we did means a gol darn thing, not even if we are emperor of the Roman empire. The only way for anything we do on earth to really have any meaning is for there to be an afterlife. I keep going back to physics. If human consciousness is nothing special; then why does quantum require that observer as Weinberg said in my OP. Why is it impossible to formulate the fundamental relations between the fundamental particles without a reference to what a conscious mind choses. To me, this is a HUGE clue that consciousness is above this universe and thus our 'souls' have an importance way beyond what modern science places on them. If we have a soul, then questions of the afterlife naturally follow. I have had 15 years with this disease to think about these issues.
                            Ah, the dilemma faced by Solomon in Ecclesiastes. Everything in this life is futile without acknowledging God. If one perceives each day of existence, labor, and basic provision as a gift from God, and accepts whatever God gives, then that person lives an abundant life. On the other hand, one who attempts to be satisfied apart from God will live with futility regardless of his accomplishments.


                            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by grmorton View Post
                              Jedidiah, cancer is a real obscenity. One thing I have noticed is that in some sense, all these physical issues move us towards a mental state where we are ready to go. I am not quite there yet, but I can see it on the horizon. Much like the pains of birth
                              True I expect. I sometimes think I would have better refused chemo, but I could not do it with my wife at my side. It is hard enough for her as it is.

                              You are, I believe, correct in seeing those standing by, unable to do anything but help out with physical chores, as suffering more than the "patient."
                              Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by grmorton View Post
                                . . . Sadly, chemo made everything taste worse than it used to. But on the good side, I have lost some much needed to lose weight. lol
                                One of the many down sides to chemo. Even things that I always loved are not good. I eat because I need to keep my weight up as much as I can, but it is no pleasure - it is a chore. Not a weight loss program I can recommend.
                                Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                                Comment

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