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New evidence of a possible cyclic universe.

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  • New evidence of a possible cyclic universe.

    New evidence of a possible cyclic universe.

    Source: https://physicsworld.com/a/new-evidence-for-cyclic-universe-claimed-by-roger-penrose-and-colleagues/



    New evidence for cyclic universe claimed by Roger Penrose and colleagues

    Unexpected hot spots in the cosmic microwave background (CMB) could have been produced by black holes evaporating before the Big Bang. So says a trio of scientists led by mathematical physicist Roger Penrose in a paper presenting new evidence that our universe is just one stage in a potentially infinite cycle of cosmic extinction and rebirth. Other researchers, however, remain sceptical that the microwave background really does contain signs from a previous “aeon”.

    According to standard cosmology, the universe underwent a very brief but exceptionally intense expansion just after the Big Bang. This period of “inflation” would have ironed out any irregularities in the structure of the early universe, leading to the very uniform cosmos that we observe around us.

    However, Penrose, based at the University of Oxford , has developed a rival theory known as “conformal cyclic cosmology“(CCC) which posits that the universe became uniform before, rather than after, the Big Bang. The idea is that the universe cycles from one aeon to the next, each time starting out infinitely small and ultra-smooth before expanding and generating clumps of matter. That matter eventually gets sucked up by supermassive black holes, which over the very long term disappear by continuously emitting Hawking radiation. This process restores uniformity and sets the stage for the next Big Bang.

    © Copyright Original Source

    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  • #2
    Wouldn't signs left over from a previous cycle necessarily make the starting conditions NONsmooth?
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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    • #3
      I wouldn't jump on the bandwagon just yet!

      Source: PhysicsWorld

      Douglas Scott, a colleague of Zibin at British Columbia, is also sceptical. Describing the paper as “very muddled and hard to follow”, he is wary of what he sees as a potentially never-ending series of attempts to find unusual features in the CMB. “Obviously, if someone could show that some specific pattern on the microwave sky was a proof that the universe underwent a series of cycles then that would be spectacularly exciting,” he says. “But this paper falls very short of doing that.”

      © Copyright Original Source



      Blessings,
      Lee
      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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      • #4
        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
        I wouldn't jump on the bandwagon just yet!

        Source: PhysicsWorld

        Douglas Scott, a colleague of Zibin at British Columbia, is also sceptical. Describing the paper as “very muddled and hard to follow”, he is wary of what he sees as a potentially never-ending series of attempts to find unusual features in the CMB. “Obviously, if someone could show that some specific pattern on the microwave sky was a proof that the universe underwent a series of cycles then that would be spectacularly exciting,” he says. “But this paper falls very short of doing that.”

        © Copyright Original Source



        Blessings,
        Lee
        The reason I added the proviso 'possible.' Yes it is at present controversial. Beyond the Planc time of the early expansion of our universe I am skeptical of all the hypothesis concerning the origins of our universe At present not enough information to definitively choose one over the others.
        Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-23-2018, 05:28 PM.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          Wouldn't signs left over from a previous cycle necessarily make the starting conditions NONsmooth?
          Not enough information.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            Wouldn't signs left over from a previous cycle necessarily make the starting conditions NONsmooth?
            You'd be right. Penrose does have an answer for that. His idea is that black holes don't obey the laws of thermodynamics. This isn't as far out as it sounds, because if you just "do the math" then current physics gives that they don't. The expectation of most physicists is that black holes do obey the laws of thermodynamics ultimately.

            So basically at the end of the universe we have a gas of particles that is mopped up by black holes. The black holes evaporate slowly over a period of years into a soup of gravitons and photons (with a very low entropy - as per his assumptions regarding black hole behaviour). And then lo and behold, this ends up looking pretty much exactly the same as the initial conditions.

            He's been searching the Cosmic Microwave Background radiation for effects he should be able to predict from this. So far though he's turned up empty handed whenever further studies have been made.

            Having heard interviews from him and read his books he personally seems to think this possibility as just that. A possibility worth exploring. And he's doing that. So far he doesn't have any credible evidence to make it anything more than an interesting hypothesis.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              Not enough information.
              By definition, if the universe shrank to a singularity, there would be no place for these left over remnants to exist in to affect the next cycle. Even black holes have to exist at a location in space/time.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                By definition, if the universe shrank to a singularity, there would be no place for these left over remnants to exist in to affect the next cycle. Even black holes have to exist at a location in space/time.
                Most cyclic universes are not necessarily based on the reduction of the universe to a singularity, though this seems to make that assumption, with no relics of a previous nor another universe. We do not have enough information to assume what is the nature of the singularity. All science is objectively able to do is replicate the nature of the expansion as some planc seconds after the hypothetical beginning of the expansion of the universe.

                Beyond this, at present we have only the possibility of different hypothesis of origins, such as, the multiverse, cyclic universes, and black hole universes.

                We have no definitive objective verifible evidence for any sort of 'absolute' beginning.
                Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-24-2018, 12:00 PM.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  Most cyclic universes are not necessarily based on the reduction of the universe to a singularity, though this seems to make that assumption, with no relics of a previous nor another universe. We do not have enough information to assume what is the nature of the singularity. All science is objectively able to do is replicate the nature of the expansion as some planc seconds after the hypothetical beginning of the expansion of the universe.

                  Beyond this, at present we have only the possibility of different hypothesis of origins, such as, the multiverse, cyclic universes, and black hole universes.

                  We have no definitive objective verifible evidence for any sort of 'absolute' beginning.
                  But you believe God created the universe, right?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    Beyond this, at present we have only the possibility of different hypothesis of origins, such as, the multiverse, cyclic universes, and black hole universes.

                    We have no definitive objective verifible evidence for any sort of 'absolute' beginning.
                    From what I understand, we have the wrong amount of energy and matter for there to have been an infinite number of cycles in a cyclical universe, only about a hundred or so. So you still have to explain what caused the cycles to start cycling in the first place.
                    Curiosity never hurt anyone. It was stupidity that killed the cat.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by QuantaFille View Post
                      From what I understand, we have the wrong amount of energy and matter for there to have been an infinite number of cycles in a cyclical universe, only about a hundred or so. So you still have to explain what caused the cycles to start cycling in the first place.
                      actually I thought the wmap project proved that this universe cannot collapse. It will continue to expand until it fades away.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        actually I thought the wmap project proved that this universe cannot collapse. It will continue to expand until it fades away.
                        Yeah, but assuming something could cause matter to move in the opposite direction from that caused by the big bang (a pretty big assumption), you don't have enough matter and energy to keep doing it over and over, infinitely. And momentum means that once something is in motion, it takes a lot of energy to change its direction. If you wait for it to come to a stop, and then push or pull it back in the direction it came from, you need at least as much energy as that which put it in motion initially to get it back to its starting point.
                        Curiosity never hurt anyone. It was stupidity that killed the cat.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by QuantaFille View Post
                          From what I understand, we have the wrong amount of energy and matter for there to have been an infinite number of cycles in a cyclical universe, only about a hundred or so. So you still have to explain what caused the cycles to start cycling in the first place.
                          From what you understand? I do not believe there is any science behind this assertion. IT would also assume that the cyclic universe is a closest system, and we have insufficient information for either assertion.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            actually I thought the wmap project proved that this universe cannot collapse. It will continue to expand until it fades away.
                            No. This hypothesis uses the same information, and proposes a different hypothesis.
                            Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-24-2018, 09:52 PM.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              But you believe God created the universe, right?
                              My beliefs are not an issue here. This is a science topic in Natural Science 301.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment

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