New evidence of a possible cyclic universe.

[shunyadragon]

Actually they are. Do you believe this theory or not?

They? What is they?

All I propose in this thread is that the hypothesis of a cyclic universe is 'possible' supported by the new evidence. It is possible that our universe is finitely or infinitely cyclic IF it is a cyclic universe. Science cannot falsify whether our physical existence is eternal, temporal, infinite nor finite.

I do not view science in terms of what 'I believe or not.'

My belief in the Baha'i Faith teaches the harmony of science and religion. The question whether our universe is cyclic or not is no problem with what 'I believe.'

[37818]

If it has no first cause then there can never be succeeding effects. That's the point of the domino example.

In the case of no first cause, there would be an infinite prior cause and effects. Else it would not be infinite. In any case there still would be an uncaused cause, which is contingent on there being uncaused existence, which is the only self existent, and there is non else.

[Sparko]

Only for a finite closed system. An infinite past without a beginning has no first cause. Else it would not be infinite.

That sentence doesn't even make sense.

Basically an actual infinity consisting of an infinite amount of moments ticking off cannot exist. Or an infinite number of loops. You could never reach the current moment or loop. MM explained it very well. William Lane Craig explained it well in his Kalam Cosmological Argument. Imagine you come across an man who has been counting down for an infinite amount of time and just as you come across him he say, "3, 2, 1, done!" If he has been counting from infinity, why didn't he finish a year ago, 1000 years ago, or an infinite number of years ago?

[Sparko]

They? What is they?

your beliefs.

All I propose in this thread is that the hypothesis of a cyclic universe is 'possible' supported by the new evidence. It is possible that our universe is finitely or infinitely cyclic IF it is a cyclic universe. Science cannot falsify whether our physical existence is eternal, temporal, infinite nor finite.

I do not view science in terms of what 'I believe or not.'

My belief in the Baha'i Faith teaches the harmony of science and religion. The question whether our universe is cyclic or not is no problem with what 'I believe.'

Of course it matter what you believe. You would not post a theory that you didn't believe would you? You always seem to post articles and theories that you believe point to an infinite number of universe cycles, or a super metaverse that always existed and creates bubble universes like ours. It has become a pet project of yours. Yet if you actually believed in God, you would not keep trying so hard to eliminate him with the wacky theories you keep posting.

[37818]

Basically an actual infinity consisting of an infinite amount of moments ticking off cannot exist. Or an infinite number of loops. You could never reach the current moment or loop. MM explained it very well. William Lane Craig explained it well in his Kalam Cosmological Argument. Imagine you come across an man who has been counting down for an infinite amount of time and just as you come across him he say, "3, 2, 1, done!" If he has been counting from infinity, why didn't he finish a year ago, 1000 years ago, or an infinite number of years ago?

An infinite past can and does consist of an infinite number of moments. And has no first moment. And an infinite can end and still remain infinite. The Son of God as God has such an infinite past. Now forever will be a man for a finite time. Yet for infinite time remains the Son of God.

[Mountain Man]

In the case of no first cause, there would be an infinite prior cause and effects. Else it would not be infinite. In any case there still would be an uncaused cause, which is contingent on there being uncaused existence, which is the only self existent, and there is non else.

You seem to be confusing the concept of infinity with infinite regress. Infinity can and does exist, but an infinite regress can not for reasons that have been explained (short version, it's literally impossible for all prior causes and effects to have transpired, meaning you could never reach any one cause and effect in the series). I suspect your hesitance to accept that an infinite regress is impossible is because you think this somehow contradicts the existence of God, but God is not a series of causes and effects; rather, he simply exists in a timeless, unchanging state. To put it another way, God is infinite, but he is not infinitely regressive.

[Sparko]

An infinite past can and does consist of an infinite number of moments. And has no first moment. And an infinite can end and still remain infinite. The Son of God as God has such an infinite past. Now forever will be a man for a finite time. Yet for infinite time remains the Son of God.

God has existed from eternity. Not infinity. He existed prior to their being time. Time itself had a beginning so it can not be infinite. An actual infinity can't exist. Only a potential infinity. Like saying you will live forever. You had an actual beginning and you will potentially live forever, but you can never actually reach infinity by counting from 1. You will always be at a finite number. So infinite time remains for you too. But you will never reach infinity.

[shunyadragon]

your beliefs.



Of course it matter what you believe. You would not post a theory that you didn't believe would you? You always seem to post articles and theories that you believe point to an infinite number of universe cycles, or a super metaverse that always existed and creates bubble universes like ours. It has become a pet project of yours. Yet if you actually believed in God, you would not keep trying so hard to eliminate him with the wacky theories you keep posting.

I cannot accept your negative view of science. I can only state my belief in God, the Baha'i Faith and the relationship to science. the ever advancing knowledge of science is not a threat to my belief in God, because science is only capable of theories and hypothesis concerning the nature of our physical existence,

Again . . .

All I propose in this thread is that the hypothesis of a cyclic universe is 'possible' supported by the new evidence. It is possible that our universe is finitely or infinitely cyclic IF it is a cyclic universe. Science cannot falsify whether our physical existence is eternal, temporal, infinite nor finite.

I do not view science in terms of what 'I believe or not.'

My belief in the Baha'i Faith teaches the harmony of science and religion. The question whether our universe is cyclic or not is no problem with what 'I believe.'

[Sparko]

I cannot accept your negative view of science. I can only state my belief in God, the Baha'i Faith and the relationship to science. the ever advancing knowledge of science is not a threat to my belief in God, because science is only capable of theories and hypothesis concerning the nature of our physical existence,

Again . . .

All I propose in this thread is that the hypothesis of a cyclic universe is 'possible' supported by the new evidence. It is possible that our universe is finitely or infinitely cyclic IF it is a cyclic universe. Science cannot falsify whether our physical existence is eternal, temporal, infinite nor finite.

I do not view science in terms of what 'I believe or not.'

My belief in the Baha'i Faith teaches the harmony of science and religion. The question whether our universe is cyclic or not is no problem with what 'I believe.'

Your complete dodge speaks a mouthful Shunya. We have indeed made the right decision regarding your faith designation on this site. Thank you.

[37818]

God has existed from eternity. Not infinity. He existed prior to their being time. Time itself had a beginning so it can not be infinite. An actual infinity can't exist. Only a potential infinity. Like saying you will live forever. You had an actual beginning and you will potentially live forever, but you can never actually reach infinity by counting from 1. You will always be at a finite number. So infinite time remains for you too. But you will never reach infinity.

So are you arguing that eternity is not an infinite past? God is infinite. God who create [ex nihlo] our heaven and earth sometime in eternity after He created the angels, could have created infinite creations prior to our heaven and earth, there never being any first creation. God has not changed.

[shunyadragon]

Your complete dodge speaks a mouthful Shunya. We have indeed made the right decision regarding your faith designation on this site. Thank you.

Great example of self-emulation!

[Sparko]

So are you arguing that eternity is not an infinite past? God is infinite. God who create [ex nihlo] our heaven and earth sometime in eternity after He created the angels, could have created infinite creations prior to our heaven and earth, there never being any first creation. God has not changed.

God existed prior to there being time. So he can't exist in an infinite past because there is no infinite past. Time started when God created it. That is why I say he existed eternally.

Infinity isn't a duration anyway. It is a complete set. You can't build up to infinity. Infinity just is.

[37818]

God existed prior to there being time. So he can't exist in an infinite past because there is no infinite past. Time started when God created it. That is why I say he existed eternally.

Infinity isn't a duration anyway. It is a complete set. You can't build up to infinity. Infinity just is.

I never argued building up to any infinity. But from infinity, where there is no beginning.

". . . from everlasting to everlasting . . ." Psalm 90:2.

[37818]

You seem to be confusing the concept of infinity with infinite regress. Infinity can and does exist, but an infinite regress can not for reasons that have been explained (short version, it's literally impossible for all prior causes and effects to have transpired, meaning you could never reach any one cause and effect in the series). I suspect your hesitance to accept that an infinite regress is impossible is because you think this somehow contradicts the existence of God, but God is not a series of causes and effects; rather, he simply exists in a timeless, unchanging state. To put it another way, God is infiniAte, but he is not infinitely regressive.

An infinite regression has no beginning, no first event.

There are two possibilities:

A: That God from eternity never created anything until one unique first creation.
Where in eternity prior to that creation God was not yet a creator.

B: That God from eternity created. That there was never any first unique creation.
God was always the Creator.

[Mountain Man]

An infinite regression has no beginning, no first event.

There are two possibilities:

A: That God from eternity never created anything until one unique first creation.
Where in eternity prior to that creation God was not yet a creator.

B: That God from eternity created. That there was never any first unique creation.
God was always the Creator.

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here, but the fact that an infinite regress has no first event is precisely the reason why there can be no succeeding causes, making it essentially a fixed state that can never change.

As for your two possibilities, you seem to be wrestling with the question, "If God is infinite then when did he decide to create the universe?" and answer B seems to be the most correct: God eternally willed its creation. To talk of God in terms of "before and after creation" is incoherent.