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Thread: The Qur'an is not the Word of God?

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    An argument is presented here that can be summarized as follows:

    Premise 1: Either the Bible is the Word of God or it is not.
    Premise 2: If the Bible is the Word of God, the Qur’an is not.
    Premise 3: If the Bible is not the Word of God, the Qur’an is not.
    Conclusion: Therefore, the Qur’an is not the Word of God.

    Premises 1 is indisputable, and as the author says, "Premise 2 is easy to establish, since the Qur’an and the Bible fundamentally contradict one another." So the argument hinges on premise 3. The author then goes on to show that "The Qur’an, over and over again, affirms the Christian Scriptures, claiming consistency with them, and asserting that the Torah and the Gospel (the 'Injil'), and also the Psalms, are previous revelations from Allah." So if the Bible is not the Word of God, then neither can the Qur'an be.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    The Muslim position with regards to the Old testamennt and New testament is not one of "either/or"---Black/white---rather it is nuanced. Therefore, a Muslim would begin with the premise, 1) The Old testament and New testament reflect "Truth" from God which is that God is One. 2) Therefore, insofar as all Holy texts reflect this message, they are from God. In those areas where they stray from this "Truth" they have been corrupted. 3) God has sent his message to all humanity in their language and cultural/historical context...to know the essence of God's message, one must judge to what extent it aligns with the "Truth" that God is one.

    It might be interesting to reflect on what the term "Word" refers/means in the historical-cultural context of Christians and Muslims?

    If we assume "word" in a general context refers to names of something (things, emotions, actions...etc) or reality that is abstracted for the purpose of communication. Then sacred texts that communicate "The Reality" (God) could be considered the "word" of (about) God. Sacred texts can "name" God---that is---attempt to define, explain, communicate of (about) God.

    In English/Christian context, this term is derived from the Greek word Logos (speech, plea, reason....etc). This term took on more depth of meaning within Christian philosophy.

    https://www.islamreligion.com/articl...-quran-part-2/
    The Christian idea of the logos is completely different from the simple Islamic understanding of the ‘Word.’ The idea of the Greek logos may be traced back at least to the 6th century BC philosopher, Heracleitus. He proposed that there was a logos in the cosmic process analogous to the reasoning power in man. The Greek speaking Jewish philosopher, Judaeus Philo of Alexandria (15 BC - 45 CE), taught that the logos was the intermediary between God and the cosmos. The writings of Philo were preserved and cherished by the Church, and provided the inspiration for a sophisticated Christian philosophical theology. "The identification of Jesus with the logos… was further developed in the early church but more on the basis of Greek philosophical ideas than on Old Testament motifs. This development was dictated by attempts made by early Christian theologians and apologists to express the Christian faith in terms that would be intelligible to the Hellenistic world and to impress their hearers with the view that Christianity was superior to, or heir to, all that was best in pagan philosophy."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos

    For Muslims, there are two Arabic terms "Kun" (Be) and "Kalam" (speech, word) that might come to mind when thinking of the English term "word" in the Quranic context.

    The concept of "Kun" (Be) is about God's power. All things exist because God wills it. You, me, the Universe, our sacred texts,....etc. "to exist" is a God dependent phenomenon. In this context, the Quran came to exist because of God's will the same way Prophet Jesus came to exist because of God's will. It is also the same way all human beings come to "exist".


    Quranic references to KUN FAYAKŪN:

    "She said: “O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?” He said: “Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, ‘Be,’ and it is!"[3:47]
    "The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: “Be”. And he was."[3:59]
    "It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, “Be”, and it is."[19:35]
    "To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: “Be,” and it is."[2:116–117]
    "It is He who created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions): the day He saith, “Be,” behold! it is. His word is the truth. His will be the dominion the day the trumpet will be blown. He knoweth the unseen as well as that which is open. For He is the Wise, well acquainted (with all things)."[6:73]
    "Verily, when He intends a thing, His Command is, “be”, and it is!"[36:82]
    "For to anything which We have willed, We but say the word, “Be”, and it is."[16:40]
    "It is He Who gives Life and Death; and when He decides upon an affair, He says to it, “Be”, and it is."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kun_(Islamic_term)

    Kalam (Kalimatun...etc...)
    http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=klm

    Can be understood as word, speech or communication. In the context of the Quran, one could think of it as a letter or message.
    In Islamic historical usage, this term was used for "Ilm-al-Kalam" ----generally shortened to Kalam and is often studied as part of Islamic philosophy.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalam

    In this context, the Quran can be understood as a message/letter from God and also as a discourse persuading for One God.

  2. #12
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    The Muslim position with regards to the Old testamennt and New testament is not one of "either/or"---Black/white---rather it is nuanced. Therefore, a Muslim would begin with the premise, 1) The Old testament and New testament reflect "Truth" from God which is that God is One. 2) Therefore, insofar as all Holy texts reflect this message, they are from God. In those areas where they stray from this "Truth" they have been corrupted. 3) God has sent his message to all humanity in their language and cultural/historical context...to know the essence of God's message, one must judge to what extent it aligns with the "Truth" that God is one.
    Thank you for your response, now the argument hinges on the Qur'an's authentication of the Bible, notably the books of Moses (Sura 2:87), the Psalms (Sura 4:163) and the gospel (Sura 3:3, 5:46). And then we read that no one can alter the words of Allah:

    Source: Qur'an

    "Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers," (6:34).
    "The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all," (6:115).
    "For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity," (10:64).

    © Copyright Original Source



    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    An argument is presented here that can be summarized as follows:

    Premise 1: Either the Bible is the Word of God or it is not.
    Premise 2: If the Bible is the Word of God, the Quran is not.
    Premise 3: If the Bible is not the Word of God, the Quran is not.
    Conclusion: Therefore, the Quran is not the Word of God.

    Premises 1 is indisputable, and as the author says, "Premise 2 is easy to establish, since the Quran and the Bible fundamentally contradict one another." So the argument hinges on premise 3. The author then goes on to show that "The Quran, over and over again, affirms the Christian Scriptures, claiming consistency with them, and asserting that the Torah and the Gospel (the 'Injil'), and also the Psalms, are previous revelations from Allah." So if the Bible is not the Word of God, then neither can the Qur'an be.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Edited by a Moderator
    Last edited by Bill the Cat; 01-14-2019 at 08:41 AM.

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Edited by a Moderator
    Learn to read better JimL.

    P3 The Quran claims the Old Testament is true. so if the bible is false then the Quran is false.

    And the Bible shows that the Quran is false (the Quran ignores those parts of course) - So If the bible is true, the Quran is false, and if the bible is false the Quran is false.
    Last edited by Bill the Cat; 01-14-2019 at 08:41 AM.

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Learn to read better JimL.

    P3 The Quran claims the Old Testament is true. so if the bible is false then the Quran is false.

    And the Bible shows that the Quran is false (the Quran ignores those parts of course) - So If the bible is true, the Quran is false, and if the bible is false the Quran is false.
    Edited by a Moderator
    Last edited by Bill the Cat; 01-14-2019 at 08:42 AM.

  6. #16
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Thank you for your response, now the argument hinges on the Qur'an's authentication of the Bible, notably the books of Moses (Sura 2:87), the Psalms (Sura 4:163) and the gospel (Sura 3:3, 5:46). And then we read that no one can alter the words of Allah:

    Source: Qur'an

    "Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers," (6:34).
    "The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all," (6:115).
    "For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity," (10:64).

    © Copyright Original Source



    Blessings,
    Lee
    From the Muslim perspective, the question of--- is it (Quran) "from" God or from human depends not on what the Zabur (Psalms) Taurat (Torah) or Injil (NT) have to say....but on the structure of the Quran itself. Therefore, the Quran is its own "proof". This is because the concept of "Message" and "Messenger" is different from Christianity....perhaps? As I understand it...the general meaning of a "Prophet" is one who fortells the future and therefore the "message" is the prophesy....?...
    In Islam there are 2 concept words for "messenger"---Rasul (messenger who brings law) and Nabi (also used in Hebrew, is one who brings a message/guidance=Prophet) The task and intent of the Quran is not simply to convey (a)"Truth" (One God), but to serve as (b) guidance to humanity and (c)bring peace through justice and law. This aspect of justice through laws is spelled out in the story of Abel and Cain in the Quran. Lack of law/system of justice, resulted in violence. The Quran also speaks about manners/ettiquettes, marital relations, duties and rights between parent and child, commerce and economics, principles of governance and statecraft....etc Therefore it is a wholistic guide to humanity in building the self and the society. Further, the principle "Truth" throughout the Quran is that there is only ONE God.

    Another difference might be in how the transmission of the "Message" is understood in Christianity and Islam. As I understand it, the Gospels and other writings of the NT are written by apostle (?) not Prophet---is this correct?

    Apostle [N] [E] [S]
    (Gk. apostolos [ajpovstolo"]). Envoy, ambassador, or messenger commissioned to carry out the instructions of the commissioning agent.
    https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/apostle/

    From my perspective---this involves human agency and intellect. The Quran is a message recited by the Prophet Muhammed, as revealed, without involvement of human agency or intellect. Therefore, the standard a Muslim expects from the Quran is much higher than that of other sacred writings. The Quran itself sets the criteria....if a human being cannot replicate even one surah of the Quran...then it is not from human.
    Since the criteria for the Quran is much higher, a Muslim will use the Quran as a Guide to what is "Truth" in other sacred writings. "Truth" that aligns with One God in other sacred writings is "from" God and those that do not, have been corrupted by humans.

    Quran quotes (6:34, 6:115)

    6:33
    We know indeed the grief which their words do cause you: It is not you they reject: It is the signs of God, which the wicked deny.
    6:34
    Rejected were the messengers before you: With patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their persecution until our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (an decrees) of God. Already have you received some account of those messengers.
    6:35
    If their spurning is hard on you, yet if you were able to seek a tunnel in the ground or a ladder to the skies and bring them a sign,-(what good?) If it were God's will, he could gather them together to true guidance: so be not you among those who are swayed by ignorance (and impatience).

    -----these verses do not have anything to do with previous sacred writings...but are about encouragement to the Prophet Muhammed in his mission to relay the Quran

    6:114
    Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than God?- For he it is who has sent to you the Book, explained in detail. They know full well, to whom we have given the Book, that it has been sent down from your Lord in Truth. Never be then of those who doubt.
    6:115
    The word of your Lord does find its fulfillment in Truth and in justice: None can change his words: for he is the one who hears and knows all.
    6:116
    Were you to follow the common run of those on earth, they will lead you away from the way of God. They follow nothing but conjecture: they do nothing but lie.
    6:117
    Your Lord knows best who strays from his way: He knows best who is rightly guided.

    ---These verses show the Prophet and his listeners that the criteria for "Truth" is not what other human beings decide---but what God decides---and this "Truth" is that there is only One God. And it is the sole right of God to Judge to what extent one is rightly guided or not.

    ---Verse 10:64---if you look at verse 10:61---you will see that the recitation of the Quran is mentioned.....

    as explained earlier, Kun (Be) as in, decree or will of God, is also part of the range of understanding of the english translation as "Word"

  7. #17
    tWebber JohnHermes's Avatar
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    I believe in the esoteric aspects. Sufism is the internal aspect of finding god through self-hood.
    The Internal philosophy

    Esoteric Islam-sufi_love_scene_Humanity-HealingMy place is the no-place
    My image is without face
    Neither of body nor the soul
    I am of the Divine Whole.
    ~Rumi

    Here's more on the gnostic aspects of Islam. http://adishakti.org/_/goddess_remai...t_of_islam.htm

  8. #18
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHermes View Post
    I believe in the esoteric aspects. Sufism is the internal aspect of finding god through self-hood. ~Rumi

    Here's more on the gnostic aspects of Islam. http://adishakti.org/_/goddess_remai...t_of_islam.htm

    The Quran speaks of 3 levels of spirituality:-
    a)Islam--- The first (lowest) level is one (muslim) who practices the rules and lives according to the laws (Sharia)
    ....there is a quote that goes like this---“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.”
    human beings live in a structured system---in social, economic, law, political, religious aspects. The Quran advices on the ethico-moral principles that these structured systems should be based.

    b)Iman---a person who has conviction/faith (momeen) This step needs intellectual assent that can lead to heartfelt conviction.... and therefore requires a rigorous pursuit of knowledge. Blind faith is discouraged in the Quran. As intelligent beings, we need to make sense of the world we live in and we also need a purpose. The Quran explains our role as Trustees of God's creation and the responsibilities this entails. Our existence on earth is a test---we decide---with our own free-will---our road to our final destination.

    c)Ihsan---a person (mohsin) who acts/behaves as if they see God...if not, then at least they know that God sees them. This is the level of Sufism and one cannot attain this level of spirituality without passing the other two levels. This level of spirituality understands the will of God and human will is bent towards God's will. (God's will = Right belief that leads to right intentions that promote right actions for the benefit of all of Gods creation)

    In Islam/Quran ---God is neither male nor female. Therefore the sufi site u linked to may perhaps be a westernized version/interpretation of Sufism?
    It is true that the Quran uses words that are grammatically masculine or feminine when describing attributes of God----that does not mean God has a gender as we human beings would understand it here on earth. Sufis do write love poetry to/about God as their beloved and some Westerners may look at this as being addressed to a feminine God and others may think it is addressed to a masculine God (homosexual love)---my personal opinion is that its simply a cultural misunderstanding.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoIbD3Ip6Hs

  9. #19
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    Quran quotes (6:34, 6:115)

    6:33
    We know indeed the grief which their words do cause you: It is not you they reject: It is the signs of God, which the wicked deny.
    6:34
    Rejected were the messengers before you: With patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their persecution until our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (an decrees) of God. Already have you received some account of those messengers.
    6:35
    If their spurning is hard on you, yet if you were able to seek a tunnel in the ground or a ladder to the skies and bring them a sign,-(what good?) If it were God's will, he could gather them together to true guidance: so be not you among those who are swayed by ignorance (and impatience).

    -----these verses do not have anything to do with previous sacred writings...but are about encouragement to the Prophet Muhammed in his mission to relay the Quran
    Yet this is a general statement, are you saying that someone can alter the decrees of God in other books?

    6:114
    Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than God?- For he it is who has sent to you the Book, explained in detail. They know full well, to whom we have given the Book, that it has been sent down from your Lord in Truth. Never be then of those who doubt.
    6:115
    The word of your Lord does find its fulfillment in Truth and in justice: None can change his words: for he is the one who hears and knows all.
    6:116
    Were you to follow the common run of those on earth, they will lead you away from the way of God. They follow nothing but conjecture: they do nothing but lie.
    6:117
    Your Lord knows best who strays from his way: He knows best who is rightly guided.

    ---These verses show the Prophet and his listeners that the criteria for "Truth" is not what other human beings decide---but what God decides---and this "Truth" is that there is only One God. And it is the sole right of God to Judge to what extent one is rightly guided or not.
    And also that "None can change his words."

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  10. #20
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Yet this is a general statement, are you saying that someone can alter the decrees of God in other books?


    And also that "None can change his words."

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Its an interesting question....to rephrase...Can human beings alter what God wills/decrees? The answer will have broad ramifications so I will need to think on it more....but I might venture to answer that God's will/decree can only be changed by God....therefore, human beings have only that power for alteration that God would choose to give them.....

    God's will is for human beings to have right belief that promote right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creation---therefore we human beings have been given the responsibility of Trusteeship....Yet, we have also been given the freedom to abdicate this responsibility (with consequences....).

    The Islamic stance is that God has sent many Prophets throughout time and geography to guide humanity---as promised to Prophet Adam. (ALL humanity belongs to the ONE God). These Prophets brought "The Truth" that God is One (Tawheed) and this message can be found in all sacred texts/messages to various degrees depending on the level of corruption. This Guidance was sent in a language and cultural context befitting the peoples it was sent to at the time it was sent. Over time, as cultural contexts and circumstances changed...God could have seen fit to send new messengers/Prophets....and laws.

    That God has chosen to send sacred texts previous to the Quran or that aspects of previous law or Guidance differs from the Quran ----have no bearing on the Quran because the Quran stands on its own merits and does not require validation from previous scriptures/sacred texts.

    As to corruption of the Quran---textual/oral....so far....It seems God has chosen not to give such freedom/power to human beings......?.....

    ....for now these are my thoughts, I may research on this more and get back to you....

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