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Thread: The Qur'an is not the Word of God?

  1. #11
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    An argument is presented here that can be summarized as follows:

    Premise 1: Either the Bible is the Word of God or it is not.
    Premise 2: If the Bible is the Word of God, the Qur’an is not.
    Premise 3: If the Bible is not the Word of God, the Qur’an is not.
    Conclusion: Therefore, the Qur’an is not the Word of God.

    Premises 1 is indisputable, and as the author says, "Premise 2 is easy to establish, since the Qur’an and the Bible fundamentally contradict one another." So the argument hinges on premise 3. The author then goes on to show that "The Qur’an, over and over again, affirms the Christian Scriptures, claiming consistency with them, and asserting that the Torah and the Gospel (the 'Injil'), and also the Psalms, are previous revelations from Allah." So if the Bible is not the Word of God, then neither can the Qur'an be.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    The Muslim position with regards to the Old testamennt and New testament is not one of "either/or"---Black/white---rather it is nuanced. Therefore, a Muslim would begin with the premise, 1) The Old testament and New testament reflect "Truth" from God which is that God is One. 2) Therefore, insofar as all Holy texts reflect this message, they are from God. In those areas where they stray from this "Truth" they have been corrupted. 3) God has sent his message to all humanity in their language and cultural/historical context...to know the essence of God's message, one must judge to what extent it aligns with the "Truth" that God is one.

    It might be interesting to reflect on what the term "Word" refers/means in the historical-cultural context of Christians and Muslims?

    If we assume "word" in a general context refers to names of something (things, emotions, actions...etc) or reality that is abstracted for the purpose of communication. Then sacred texts that communicate "The Reality" (God) could be considered the "word" of (about) God. Sacred texts can "name" God---that is---attempt to define, explain, communicate of (about) God.

    In English/Christian context, this term is derived from the Greek word Logos (speech, plea, reason....etc). This term took on more depth of meaning within Christian philosophy.

    https://www.islamreligion.com/articl...-quran-part-2/
    The Christian idea of the logos is completely different from the simple Islamic understanding of the ‘Word.’ The idea of the Greek logos may be traced back at least to the 6th century BC philosopher, Heracleitus. He proposed that there was a logos in the cosmic process analogous to the reasoning power in man. The Greek speaking Jewish philosopher, Judaeus Philo of Alexandria (15 BC - 45 CE), taught that the logos was the intermediary between God and the cosmos. The writings of Philo were preserved and cherished by the Church, and provided the inspiration for a sophisticated Christian philosophical theology. "The identification of Jesus with the logos… was further developed in the early church but more on the basis of Greek philosophical ideas than on Old Testament motifs. This development was dictated by attempts made by early Christian theologians and apologists to express the Christian faith in terms that would be intelligible to the Hellenistic world and to impress their hearers with the view that Christianity was superior to, or heir to, all that was best in pagan philosophy."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos

    For Muslims, there are two Arabic terms "Kun" (Be) and "Kalam" (speech, word) that might come to mind when thinking of the English term "word" in the Quranic context.

    The concept of "Kun" (Be) is about God's power. All things exist because God wills it. You, me, the Universe, our sacred texts,....etc. "to exist" is a God dependent phenomenon. In this context, the Quran came to exist because of God's will the same way Prophet Jesus came to exist because of God's will. It is also the same way all human beings come to "exist".


    Quranic references to KUN FAYAKŪN:

    "She said: “O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?” He said: “Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, ‘Be,’ and it is!"[3:47]
    "The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: “Be”. And he was."[3:59]
    "It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, “Be”, and it is."[19:35]
    "To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: “Be,” and it is."[2:116–117]
    "It is He who created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions): the day He saith, “Be,” behold! it is. His word is the truth. His will be the dominion the day the trumpet will be blown. He knoweth the unseen as well as that which is open. For He is the Wise, well acquainted (with all things)."[6:73]
    "Verily, when He intends a thing, His Command is, “be”, and it is!"[36:82]
    "For to anything which We have willed, We but say the word, “Be”, and it is."[16:40]
    "It is He Who gives Life and Death; and when He decides upon an affair, He says to it, “Be”, and it is."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kun_(Islamic_term)

    Kalam (Kalimatun...etc...)
    http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=klm

    Can be understood as word, speech or communication. In the context of the Quran, one could think of it as a letter or message.
    In Islamic historical usage, this term was used for "Ilm-al-Kalam" ----generally shortened to Kalam and is often studied as part of Islamic philosophy.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalam

    In this context, the Quran can be understood as a message/letter from God and also as a discourse persuading for One God.

  2. #12
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    The Muslim position with regards to the Old testamennt and New testament is not one of "either/or"---Black/white---rather it is nuanced. Therefore, a Muslim would begin with the premise, 1) The Old testament and New testament reflect "Truth" from God which is that God is One. 2) Therefore, insofar as all Holy texts reflect this message, they are from God. In those areas where they stray from this "Truth" they have been corrupted. 3) God has sent his message to all humanity in their language and cultural/historical context...to know the essence of God's message, one must judge to what extent it aligns with the "Truth" that God is one.
    Thank you for your response, now the argument hinges on the Qur'an's authentication of the Bible, notably the books of Moses (Sura 2:87), the Psalms (Sura 4:163) and the gospel (Sura 3:3, 5:46). And then we read that no one can alter the words of Allah:

    Source: Qur'an

    "Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers," (6:34).
    "The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all," (6:115).
    "For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity," (10:64).

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    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  3. #13
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    An argument is presented here that can be summarized as follows:

    Premise 1: Either the Bible is the Word of God or it is not.
    Premise 2: If the Bible is the Word of God, the Quran is not.
    Premise 3: If the Bible is not the Word of God, the Quran is not.
    Conclusion: Therefore, the Quran is not the Word of God.

    Premises 1 is indisputable, and as the author says, "Premise 2 is easy to establish, since the Quran and the Bible fundamentally contradict one another." So the argument hinges on premise 3. The author then goes on to show that "The Quran, over and over again, affirms the Christian Scriptures, claiming consistency with them, and asserting that the Torah and the Gospel (the 'Injil'), and also the Psalms, are previous revelations from Allah." So if the Bible is not the Word of God, then neither can the Qur'an be.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Edited by a Moderator
    Last edited by Bill the Cat; 01-14-2019 at 09:41 AM.

  4. #14
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Edited by a Moderator
    Learn to read better JimL.

    P3 The Quran claims the Old Testament is true. so if the bible is false then the Quran is false.

    And the Bible shows that the Quran is false (the Quran ignores those parts of course) - So If the bible is true, the Quran is false, and if the bible is false the Quran is false.
    Last edited by Bill the Cat; 01-14-2019 at 09:41 AM.

  5. #15
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Learn to read better JimL.

    P3 The Quran claims the Old Testament is true. so if the bible is false then the Quran is false.

    And the Bible shows that the Quran is false (the Quran ignores those parts of course) - So If the bible is true, the Quran is false, and if the bible is false the Quran is false.
    Edited by a Moderator
    Last edited by Bill the Cat; 01-14-2019 at 09:42 AM.

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