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The Qur'an is not the Word of God?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Thank you for your response, now the argument hinges on the Qur'an's authentication of the Bible, notably the books of Moses (Sura 2:87), the Psalms (Sura 4:163) and the gospel (Sura 3:3, 5:46). And then we read that no one can alter the words of Allah:

    Source: Qur'an

    "Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers," (6:34).
    "The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all," (6:115).
    "For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity," (10:64).

    © Copyright Original Source



    Blessings,
    Lee
    From the Muslim perspective, the question of--- is it (Quran) "from" God or from human depends not on what the Zabur (Psalms) Taurat (Torah) or Injil (NT) have to say....but on the structure of the Quran itself. Therefore, the Quran is its own "proof". This is because the concept of "Message" and "Messenger" is different from Christianity....perhaps? As I understand it...the general meaning of a "Prophet" is one who fortells the future and therefore the "message" is the prophesy....?...
    In Islam there are 2 concept words for "messenger"---Rasul (messenger who brings law) and Nabi (also used in Hebrew, is one who brings a message/guidance=Prophet) The task and intent of the Quran is not simply to convey (a)"Truth" (One God), but to serve as (b) guidance to humanity and (c)bring peace through justice and law. This aspect of justice through laws is spelled out in the story of Abel and Cain in the Quran. Lack of law/system of justice, resulted in violence. The Quran also speaks about manners/ettiquettes, marital relations, duties and rights between parent and child, commerce and economics, principles of governance and statecraft....etc Therefore it is a wholistic guide to humanity in building the self and the society. Further, the principle "Truth" throughout the Quran is that there is only ONE God.

    Another difference might be in how the transmission of the "Message" is understood in Christianity and Islam. As I understand it, the Gospels and other writings of the NT are written by apostle (?) not Prophet---is this correct?

    Apostle [N] [E] [S]
    (Gk. apostolos [ajpovstolo"]). Envoy, ambassador, or messenger commissioned to carry out the instructions of the commissioning agent.
    https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/apostle/

    From my perspective---this involves human agency and intellect. The Quran is a message recited by the Prophet Muhammed, as revealed, without involvement of human agency or intellect. Therefore, the standard a Muslim expects from the Quran is much higher than that of other sacred writings. The Quran itself sets the criteria....if a human being cannot replicate even one surah of the Quran...then it is not from human.
    Since the criteria for the Quran is much higher, a Muslim will use the Quran as a Guide to what is "Truth" in other sacred writings. "Truth" that aligns with One God in other sacred writings is "from" God and those that do not, have been corrupted by humans.

    Quran quotes (6:34, 6:115)

    6:33
    We know indeed the grief which their words do cause you: It is not you they reject: It is the signs of God, which the wicked deny.
    6:34
    Rejected were the messengers before you: With patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their persecution until our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (an decrees) of God. Already have you received some account of those messengers.
    6:35
    If their spurning is hard on you, yet if you were able to seek a tunnel in the ground or a ladder to the skies and bring them a sign,-(what good?) If it were God's will, he could gather them together to true guidance: so be not you among those who are swayed by ignorance (and impatience).

    -----these verses do not have anything to do with previous sacred writings...but are about encouragement to the Prophet Muhammed in his mission to relay the Quran

    6:114
    Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than God?- For he it is who has sent to you the Book, explained in detail. They know full well, to whom we have given the Book, that it has been sent down from your Lord in Truth. Never be then of those who doubt.
    6:115
    The word of your Lord does find its fulfillment in Truth and in justice: None can change his words: for he is the one who hears and knows all.
    6:116
    Were you to follow the common run of those on earth, they will lead you away from the way of God. They follow nothing but conjecture: they do nothing but lie.
    6:117
    Your Lord knows best who strays from his way: He knows best who is rightly guided.

    ---These verses show the Prophet and his listeners that the criteria for "Truth" is not what other human beings decide---but what God decides---and this "Truth" is that there is only One God. And it is the sole right of God to Judge to what extent one is rightly guided or not.

    ---Verse 10:64---if you look at verse 10:61---you will see that the recitation of the Quran is mentioned.....

    as explained earlier, Kun (Be) as in, decree or will of God, is also part of the range of understanding of the english translation as "Word"

    Comment


    • #17
      I believe in the esoteric aspects. Sufism is the internal aspect of finding god through self-hood.
      The Internal philosophy

      Esoteric Islam-sufi_love_scene_Humanity-HealingMy place is the no-place
      My image is without face
      Neither of body nor the soul
      I am of the Divine Whole.
      ~Rumi

      Here's more on the gnostic aspects of Islam. http://adishakti.org/_/goddess_remai...t_of_islam.htm

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by JohnHermes View Post
        I believe in the esoteric aspects. Sufism is the internal aspect of finding god through self-hood. ~Rumi

        Here's more on the gnostic aspects of Islam. http://adishakti.org/_/goddess_remai...t_of_islam.htm

        The Quran speaks of 3 levels of spirituality:-
        a)Islam--- The first (lowest) level is one (muslim) who practices the rules and lives according to the laws (Sharia)
        ....there is a quote that goes like this---“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.”
        human beings live in a structured system---in social, economic, law, political, religious aspects. The Quran advices on the ethico-moral principles that these structured systems should be based.

        b)Iman---a person who has conviction/faith (momeen) This step needs intellectual assent that can lead to heartfelt conviction.... and therefore requires a rigorous pursuit of knowledge. Blind faith is discouraged in the Quran. As intelligent beings, we need to make sense of the world we live in and we also need a purpose. The Quran explains our role as Trustees of God's creation and the responsibilities this entails. Our existence on earth is a test---we decide---with our own free-will---our road to our final destination.

        c)Ihsan---a person (mohsin) who acts/behaves as if they see God...if not, then at least they know that God sees them. This is the level of Sufism and one cannot attain this level of spirituality without passing the other two levels. This level of spirituality understands the will of God and human will is bent towards God's will. (God's will = Right belief that leads to right intentions that promote right actions for the benefit of all of Gods creation)

        In Islam/Quran ---God is neither male nor female. Therefore the sufi site u linked to may perhaps be a westernized version/interpretation of Sufism?
        It is true that the Quran uses words that are grammatically masculine or feminine when describing attributes of God----that does not mean God has a gender as we human beings would understand it here on earth. Sufis do write love poetry to/about God as their beloved and some Westerners may look at this as being addressed to a feminine God and others may think it is addressed to a masculine God (homosexual love)---my personal opinion is that its simply a cultural misunderstanding.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoIbD3Ip6Hs

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by siam View Post
          Quran quotes (6:34, 6:115)

          6:33
          We know indeed the grief which their words do cause you: It is not you they reject: It is the signs of God, which the wicked deny.
          6:34
          Rejected were the messengers before you: With patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their persecution until our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (an decrees) of God. Already have you received some account of those messengers.
          6:35
          If their spurning is hard on you, yet if you were able to seek a tunnel in the ground or a ladder to the skies and bring them a sign,-(what good?) If it were God's will, he could gather them together to true guidance: so be not you among those who are swayed by ignorance (and impatience).

          -----these verses do not have anything to do with previous sacred writings...but are about encouragement to the Prophet Muhammed in his mission to relay the Quran
          Yet this is a general statement, are you saying that someone can alter the decrees of God in other books?

          6:114
          Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than God?- For he it is who has sent to you the Book, explained in detail. They know full well, to whom we have given the Book, that it has been sent down from your Lord in Truth. Never be then of those who doubt.
          6:115
          The word of your Lord does find its fulfillment in Truth and in justice: None can change his words: for he is the one who hears and knows all.
          6:116
          Were you to follow the common run of those on earth, they will lead you away from the way of God. They follow nothing but conjecture: they do nothing but lie.
          6:117
          Your Lord knows best who strays from his way: He knows best who is rightly guided.

          ---These verses show the Prophet and his listeners that the criteria for "Truth" is not what other human beings decide---but what God decides---and this "Truth" is that there is only One God. And it is the sole right of God to Judge to what extent one is rightly guided or not.
          And also that "None can change his words."

          Blessings,
          Lee
          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
            Yet this is a general statement, are you saying that someone can alter the decrees of God in other books?


            And also that "None can change his words."

            Blessings,
            Lee
            Its an interesting question....to rephrase...Can human beings alter what God wills/decrees? The answer will have broad ramifications so I will need to think on it more....but I might venture to answer that God's will/decree can only be changed by God....therefore, human beings have only that power for alteration that God would choose to give them.....

            God's will is for human beings to have right belief that promote right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creation---therefore we human beings have been given the responsibility of Trusteeship....Yet, we have also been given the freedom to abdicate this responsibility (with consequences....).

            The Islamic stance is that God has sent many Prophets throughout time and geography to guide humanity---as promised to Prophet Adam. (ALL humanity belongs to the ONE God). These Prophets brought "The Truth" that God is One (Tawheed) and this message can be found in all sacred texts/messages to various degrees depending on the level of corruption. This Guidance was sent in a language and cultural context befitting the peoples it was sent to at the time it was sent. Over time, as cultural contexts and circumstances changed...God could have seen fit to send new messengers/Prophets....and laws.

            That God has chosen to send sacred texts previous to the Quran or that aspects of previous law or Guidance differs from the Quran ----have no bearing on the Quran because the Quran stands on its own merits and does not require validation from previous scriptures/sacred texts.

            As to corruption of the Quran---textual/oral....so far....It seems God has chosen not to give such freedom/power to human beings......?.....

            ....for now these are my thoughts, I may research on this more and get back to you....

            Comment


            • #21
              Some Bible verses about not adding to the word of God

              1) Deuteronomy 4:2 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
              You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

              2)Deuteronomy 12:32 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
              “[a]Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it.

              3) Revelation 22:18 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
              I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;

              4)Proverbs 30:5-6
              Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar. Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.

              5)Mark 7:13
              thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that."


              It seems that the Bible verses---at least in this translation.... are giving the responsibility for not adding or taking away from sacred texts---to the people of that book. The command is "You shall not..."
              If you compare---in the Quranic verses, the statement is that "none can change his words". The Muslim perspective is that the responsibility for the preservation of previous sacred texts was given to humanity---but the preservation of the Quran is God's decree/will....

              (Surah 15:9)
              Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian.

              SAHIH INTERNATIONAL (Surah 5:48, 59)
              And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by siam View Post
                ....for now these are my thoughts, I may research on this more and get back to you....
                That would be fine, thanks for your reply!

                Blessings to you,
                Lee
                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                Comment


                • #23
                  Your quote from surah 15 said:-

                  Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian.
                  (Surah 15:9)

                  Is your Allah/God capable of only protecting the Quran from "changes", corruption or falsifications?

                  What about the "earlier (three) books" like Torah, Psalms and Gospel (Injil)?

                  You mean they were not preserved as wahy or revelations from God in previous times? That Allah was capable to protect and preserve the Koran only - from changes??

                  Just One out of "four revalations" were vouchsafed by the almighty while He let tje other three go corrupted?? Is that it?

                  Not a very powerful "God" or "Allah" if you ask me! He could only protect / preserve 25% ie.25 percent ilf "the Books" from 'corruption & changes'. He is really more likely a '25% almighty God' and not a 100% almighty God because He let humans falsify or 'corrupt' the earlier 75% Scriptures - Taurat, Zabur & Injil or the Torah, the Psalms and the Gospel! While He only "kept one scripture (koran) pure and safe!

                  I would not want to follow an only 25% all powerful God! I'd rather follow a God Who's ALL Powerful - 100% of the time.

                  If He can "keep the koran" safe from changes' then, Why oh why, could he not also keep the other THREE SCRIPTURES - Torah, PSALMS and the Gospel safe from changes, too?!?

                  Seems clear that the god of the Koran is a really weak and impotent "God"!

                  Valid questions to ask.





                  Originally posted by siam View Post
                  Some Bible verses about not adding to the word of God

                  1) Deuteronomy 4:2 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
                  You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

                  2)Deuteronomy 12:32 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
                  “[a]Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it.

                  3) Revelation 22:18 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
                  I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;

                  4)Proverbs 30:5-6
                  Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar. Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.

                  5)Mark 7:13
                  thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that."


                  It seems that the Bible verses---at least in this translation.... are giving the responsibility for not adding or taking away from sacred texts---to the people of that book. The command is "You shall not..."
                  If you compare---in the Quranic verses, the statement is that "none can change his words". The Muslim perspective is that the responsibility for the preservation of previous sacred texts was given to humanity---but the preservation of the Quran is God's decree/will....

                  (Surah 15:9)
                  Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian.

                  SAHIH INTERNATIONAL (Surah 5:48, 59)
                  And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.

                  Comment

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