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Thread: Leftism as Secular Religion

  1. #51
    tWebber Hypatia_Alexandria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Right in atheism what else there is but biological determinism?
    Pardon? I would suggest there are many things:, culture, food, wine, good friends, love, the pleasures of the natural world, compassion, empathy, and ethical behaviours.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    I believe I asked you [...]
    lauded for their social cohestion
    snipped for irrelevance. You are also confusing social cohesion with social repression.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    No I'm not a strict determinism, but you are if you are an atheist.
    Really? How very interesting. On what evidence are you basing that pronouncement?

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Because what else is there besides biology?
    See above.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Yet you are trying to tie ethics to social cohesion, which is foolish. North Korea has great social cohesion.
    See above.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    And how do you know what the ancient Homo sapiens were doing concerning warfare before written history?
    Apart from some recent isolated evidence, Sima de los Huesos [discovered 1984] which contains the remains of Neanderthal individuals from the Middle Pleistocene, a period ranging from about 781,000 to 126,000 years ago; and Nataruk [discovered 2012] which contains bodies dating to around 10,000 years ago; we have little conclusive evidence of what we would term ”organised warfare” among early humans..

    The skeletons at Nataruk appear to have been deliberately killed but we can never know the reasons behind that. Was it a conflict over resources?

    You might also like to read this https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...r-human-beings and this https://www.livescience.com/640-peac...s-behaved.html

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    That does not change anything I said.
    In point of fact it corrects your erroneous assumption that the earliest white settlers in the continent of north America went there “to displace or destroy the native tribes”.
    Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; Today at 05:19 AM.
    "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

  2. #52
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Pardon? I would suggest there are many things:, culture, food, wine, good friends, love, the pleasures of the natural world, compassion, empathy, and ethical behaviours.
    Those are all driven by biology. If you don't believe in libertarian free will (which you refuse to answer) then you are a determinist.

    snipped for irrelevance. You are also confusing social cohesion with social repression.
    Actually I'm not confusing anything, you are. Social cohesion can be reached or supported by various means. And repression is one of those means. You do not get to objective unless you can offer a higher ethic than social cohesion.

    social cohesion
    noun, The bonds or "glue" that maintain stability in society.


    Really? How very interesting. On what evidence are you basing that pronouncement?
    Show me logically or scientifically how libertarian free will can exist in materialism?

    https://samharris.org/the-illusion-of-free-will/


    Apart from some recent isolated evidence, Sima de los Huesos [discovered 1984] which contains the remains of Neanderthal individuals from the Middle Pleistocene, a period ranging from about 781,000 to 126,000 years ago; and Nataruk [discovered 2012] which contains bodies dating to around 10,000 years ago; we have little conclusive evidence of what we would term ”organised warfare” among early humans..

    The skeletons at Nataruk appear to have been deliberately killed but we can never know the reasons behind that. Was it a conflict over resources?

    You might also like to read this https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...r-human-beings and this https://www.livescience.com/640-peac...s-behaved.html
    The fact is that we don't know, but given that we see a semi organized warfare in our closet primate cousins it is not hard to see that bleeding over to early man.

    In point of fact it corrects your erroneous assumption that the earliest white settlers in the continent of north America went there “to displace or destroy the native tribes”.
    It doesn't matter what the early settlers thought, it matters what we eventually did. And it was a good evolutionary strategy for our tribe or ethnic group.
    Last edited by seer; Today at 06:07 AM.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

  3. #53
    tWebber Hypatia_Alexandria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Those are all driven by biology. If you don't believe in libertarian free will (which you refuse to answer) then you are a determinist.



    Actually I'm not confusing anything, you are. Social cohesion can be reached or supported by various means. And repression is one of those means. You do not get to objective unless you can offer a higher ethic than social cohesion.

    social cohesion
    noun, The bonds or "glue" that maintain stability in society.




    Show me logically or scientifically how libertarian free will can exist in materialism?

    https://samharris.org/the-illusion-of-free-will/




    The fact is that we don't know, but given that we see a semi organized warfare in our closet primate cousins it is not hard to see that bleeding over to early man.



    It doesn't matter what the early settlers thought, it matters what we eventually did. And it was a good evolutionary strategy for our tribe or ethnic group.
    All this is mere digression on your part to permit you to use the exchange to ride one of your hobbyhorses.

    I also note your attempt to move the goal posts over your inaccurate comment that the earliest white settlers in the continent of north America went there “to displace or destroy the native tribes” which as I have pointed out was not the original intent.

    To return to my remarks that led to your intervention.

    There is no morality at the biological level. The strictly biological purpose of any living organism is to survive long enough to breed.

    After that the biological raison d’être is over and the organism can die having passed on its genes to the next generation.

    The remains then play their part in the nitrogen-carbon cycle. The various tissues will be broken down into their respective chemical constituents which will be recycled and then used to maintain and support new life.

    That is all established fact and not my personal opinion.

    Now if you want to contest the undeniable scientific reality underlining these facts then you are free to do so.
    "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

  4. #54
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    All this is mere digression on your part to permit you to use the exchange to ride one of your hobbyhorses.

    I also note your attempt to move the goal posts over your inaccurate comment that the earliest white settlers in the continent of north America went there “to displace or destroy the native tribes” which as I have pointed out was not the original intent.
    Is English your first language? I never said that - I said: The white Europeans come to North America displace or destroy the native tribes and create the most powerful and richest country on earth.

    I never said that the earliest white settlers came TO displace or destroy the native tribes, but that is what happened, what we eventually did.

    There is no morality at the biological level. The strictly biological purpose of any living organism is to survive long enough to breed.

    After that the biological raison d’être is over and the organism can die having passed on its genes to the next generation.

    The remains then play their part in the nitrogen-carbon cycle. The various tissues will be broken down into their respective chemical constituents which will be recycled and then used to maintain and support new life.

    That is all established fact and not my personal opinion.

    Now if you want to contest the undeniable scientific reality underlining these facts then you are free to do so.
    And if rape helps foster survival then that is simply how nature works. Overlaying your subjective moral objections on natural phenomenon is silly. Why do you hate nature so much?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

  5. #55
    tWebber Hypatia_Alexandria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Is English your first language? I never said that - I said: The white Europeans come to North America displace or destroy the native tribes and create the most powerful and richest country on earth.
    Given that I have used "white settlers" on more than one occasion, it has taken you a while to notice that.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    I never said that the earliest white settlers came TO displace or destroy the native tribes,
    You wrote "The white Europeans come to North America displace or destroy the native tribes". They didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    And if rape helps foster survival then that is simply how nature works.
    As I have already remarked;

    Hence in strictly biological terms what we term "rape" may produce reproductive benefits for those animals involved. We also know that many male animals will kill the offspring of another male in order to bring the female back into oestrus. The behaviours of dolphins [another highly intelligent mammal] appears to include what we would describe as rape, infanticide, and, on occasion, incest.
    "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

  6. #56
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Given that I have used "white settlers" on more than one occasion, it has taken you a while to notice that.
    I didn't realize how badly you took me out of context, do you do that often?

    You wrote "The white Europeans come to North America displace or destroy the native tribes". They didn't.
    They didn't do what? Displace or destroy the native tribes? Are you joking?


    Hence in strictly biological terms what we term "rape" may produce reproductive benefits for those animals involved. We also know that many male animals will kill the offspring of another male in order to bring the female back into oestrus. The behaviours of dolphins [another highly intelligent mammal] appears to include what we would describe as rape, infanticide, and, on occasion, incest.
    I'm glad you agree that rape is a good evolutionary strategy, and that is all that matters in the end. You making up moral objections doesn't change that.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

  7. #57
    tWebber Hypatia_Alexandria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    I didn't realize how badly you took me out of context, do you do that often?
    White Europeans became white settlers - my inference.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post

    They didn't do what? Displace or destroy the native tribes? Are you joking?
    Europeans did not go to North America with that primary intent.


    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post

    I'm glad you agree that rape is a good evolutionary strategy,
    I never wrote that I did. Kindly stop misrepresenting what I have written.
    "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

  8. #58
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    White Europeans became white settlers - my inference.
    But I never said that the earliest white settlers came TO displace or destroy the native tribes, as you suggested.

    Europeans did not go to North America with that primary intent.
    I never said they did! Talk about misrepresenting...

    I never wrote that I did. Kindly stop misrepresenting what I have written.
    Yes you did: Hence in strictly biological terms what we term "rape" may produce reproductive benefits for those animals involved. Own it darling...
    Last edited by seer; Today at 10:57 AM.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

  9. #59
    tWebber Hypatia_Alexandria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    But I never said that the earliest white settlers came TO displace or destroy the native tribes, as you suggested.
    I can only refer to what you wrote and you wrote,"The white Europeans come to North America displace or destroy the native tribes". " That was not the intention for coming to North America. Nor did they initially "displace or destroy the native tribes". Trade was established between New England colonists and local Native American populations and the Native Americans also assisted the white settlers with knowledge about what foodstuffs and materials could be utilised. As more Europeans arrived the settlements grew and from this came the initial problems. However, the case of Roger Williams shows that not all Europeans were intent on land grabbing at the expense of the indigenous peoples.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    I never said they did! Talk about misrepresenting...
    You never "said" anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Yes you did: Hence in strictly biological terms what we term "rape" may produce reproductive benefits for those animals involved.
    Note my qualification "what we may term "rape".

    At the biological level there is no concept of "rape". You are confusing human ethical constructs with biological imperatives.
    "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

  10. #60
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    I can only refer to what you wrote and you wrote,"The white Europeans come to North America displace or destroy the native tribes". " That was not the intention for coming to North America. Nor did they initially "displace or destroy the native tribes". Trade was established between New England colonists and local Native American populations and the Native Americans also assisted the white settlers with knowledge about what foodstuffs and materials could be utilised. As more Europeans arrived the settlements grew and from this came the initial problems. However, the case of Roger Williams shows that not all Europeans were intent on land grabbing at the expense of the indigenous peoples.
    Are you misrepresenting me on purpose? We did displace or destroy the native tribes, that is what happened. But I NEVER said it was the INTENT of the early settlers. I mean really, do you have a problem with the English language or honesty?

    You never "said" anything.
    I said this:The white Europeans come to North America displace or destroy the native tribes.Nothing about intent. I was stating a fact.

    Note my qualification "what we may term "rape".

    At the biological level there is no concept of "rape". You are confusing human ethical constructs with biological imperatives.
    No I'm not, sheesh what is wrong with you? I'm saying that our ethical constructs are secondary to biological imperatives, really meaningless. And rape is a biological imperative.
    Last edited by seer; Today at 12:04 PM.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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