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Thread: Leftism as Secular Religion

  1. #41
    tWebber Hypatia_Alexandria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    No duh! That is why survival is primary - ethics are secondary - so rape is a perfectly acceptable option.
    You are confusing biological imperatives with human constructs [i.e.morality/ethics]. There is no morality at the biological level. That is a fact.
    "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

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    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    You are confusing biological imperatives with human constructs [i.e.morality/ethics]. There is no morality at the biological level. That is a fact.
    I'm not confusing anything - "biological imperatives" dominate, subjective ethical considerations are secondary - that is why rape is a perfectly acceptable option, and why moral objections against rape are meaningless.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

  3. #43
    tWebber Hypatia_Alexandria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    I'm not confusing anything - "biological imperatives" dominate, subjective ethical considerations are secondary - that is why rape is a perfectly acceptable option, and why moral objections against rape are meaningless.
    At the biological level. However, human societies do not exist entirely at the biological level because we have something that no other animal, as far as we know has, and that is the concept of ethics and morality.
    "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

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    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    At the biological level. However, human societies do not exist entirely at the biological level because we have something that no other animal, as far as we know has, and that is the concept of ethics and morality.
    But so what? Ethics and morality take a back seat to biological drives. On tribe destroys another tribe and takes their land and resources and they thrive, and pass on their seed. That is perfectly acceptable. Subjective moral considerations carry no weigh. Biology is key.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

  5. #45
    tWebber Hypatia_Alexandria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    But so what? Ethics and morality take a back seat to biological drives.
    Not within human societies which require co-operation in order to survive and therefore social cohesion is paramount.

    Hence, we generally find that in human societies certain biological impulses are not condoned because such behaviours may strain that social cohesion. Furthermore, all human society has a culture and that culture, and its accepted mores, underpin law codes and/or social codes of what is deemed to be acceptable behaviour within each society.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    On tribe destroys another tribe and takes their land and resources and they thrive, and pass on their seed. That is perfectly acceptable. Subjective moral considerations carry no weigh. Biology is key.
    You are employing a morally subjective phrase i.e. "perfectly acceptable" which suggests some form of moral position on the behaviour you have outlined. I would also point out that organised warfare is a comparatively recent human phenomenon.

    However, at the biological level the behaviour you have described may be a necessary requirement to ensure the survival of one specific group, albeit at the expense of another, and of course individuals from the defeated group may be incorporated into the victorious group.
    "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

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    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Not within human societies which require co-operation in order to survive and therefore social cohesion is paramount.

    Hence, we generally find that in human societies certain biological impulses are not condoned because such behaviours may strain that social cohesion. Furthermore, all human society has a culture and that culture, and its accepted mores, underpin law codes and/or social codes of what is deemed to be acceptable behaviour within each society.
    You do know that our primate cousins like the chimpanzee survive just fine with a great deal of forced sex. But are you suggesting that what fosters social cohesion is moral and what undermines cohesion is immoral? So I guess you would consider the protesters (who are undermining cohesion) to be immoral. And China must be the most moral country on earth, with their strong social fabric and cohesion.

    You are employing a morally subjective phrase i.e. "perfectly acceptable" which suggests some form of moral position on the behaviour you have outlined. I would also point out that organised warfare is a comparatively recent human phenomenon.
    Have you ever seen one group of chimpanzees attack another group of chimpanzees, fairly organized. And what do you mean by comparatively recent? Like all of recorded human history?

    However, at the biological level the behaviour you have described may be a necessary requirement to ensure the survival of one specific group, albeit at the expense of another, and of course individuals from the defeated group may be incorporated into the victorious group.
    It does not have to be a necessary requirement to be advantageous. The white Europeans come to North America displace or destroy the native tribes and create the most powerful and richest country on earth. Good evolutionary strategy.
    Last edited by seer; 08-03-2020 at 05:35 AM.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

  7. #47
    tWebber Hypatia_Alexandria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    You do know that our primate cousins like the chimpanzee survive just fine with a great deal of forced sex.
    That is a rather sweeping statement given the different aspects of sexual aggression by males towards females within a wide variety of social mammals.

    Furthermore, how does that relate to human society? Or do you take a strictly biological deterministic view and perceive behaviours such as domestic violence and sexual assault as simply the human corollary of the same conduct observed in our primate cousins?

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    But are you suggesting that what fosters social cohesion is moral and what undermines cohesion is immoral?
    I did not employ those emotionally charged terms.

    What is deemed socially acceptable behaviour in human societies is condoned and helps strengthen social cohesion; while socially unacceptable behaviour which might strain that social cohesion, is not.

    That social opprobrium is usually to be found in social codes and/or law codes.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    So I guess you would consider the protesters (who are undermining cohesion) to be immoral. And China must be the most moral country on earth, with their strong social fabric and cohesion.
    You are not overly consistent in your thinking are you?

    One moment you are writing about chimpanzee behaviours which operate at the biological level. The next you are trying to use extant events in the USA and a repressive political regime in China as an attempt to make comparisons with social cohesion and social opprobrium.

    I would recommend that you definitively set out what actual point are you endeavouring to make rather than engaging in these scatter-gun comments.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Have you ever seen one group of chimpanzees attack another group of chimpanzees?
    Unless you are a strict biological determinist what has that to do with advanced and complex human societies?

    I repeat that chimpanzees while having what we may term a “society” with what appear to be forms of social cohesion, operate at the biological level. I also repeat that at the biological level ethics and morality do not exist. Lionesses do not, as far as we know, display guilt or remorse after bringing down and killing a gazelle wondering if they have left a calf motherless, or whether their prey suffered unduly.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    And what do you mean by comparatively recent? Like all of recorded human history?
    The earliest evidence of organised warfare comes from Sumer so we are looking back to the fourth millennium BCE. Given the length of time Homo sapiens have existed, that is comparatively recent.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    It does not have to be a necessary requirement to be advantageous. The white Europeans come to North America displace or destroy the native tribes
    The intention of the earliest white settlers in the continent was not “to displace or destroy the native tribes”. From where did you receive that eccentric idea? The first Europeans to arrive in the Americas were the Spanish and they were seeking mineral resources. Violence towards the indigenous peoples followed as colonisation was enforced but that was not the primary reason for those Spanish voyages.

    The expansion of white settlers across what is now the continental USA [and of course Canada] was likewise for resources, initially this was land, and then when discoveries were made, minerals.

    Furthermore, you ignore the political implications that were paramount from the early seventeenth century. The establishment of colonies by Spain, France and England [later Britain] greatly benefitted the economic power as well as the political reach of those respective European countries.
    "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

  8. #48
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    That is a rather sweeping statement given the different aspects of sexual aggression by males towards females within a wide variety of social mammals.

    Furthermore, how does that relate to human society? Or do you take a strictly biological deterministic view and perceive behaviours such as domestic violence and sexual assault as simply the human corollary of the same conduct observed in our primate cousins?
    Right in atheism what else there is but biological determinism? I believe I asked you in the past if you believed in libertarian free will. Do you?

    What is deemed socially acceptable behaviour in human societies is condoned and helps strengthen social cohesion; while socially unacceptable behaviour which might strain that social cohesion, is not.

    That social opprobrium is usually to be found in social codes and/or law codes.
    So again, the protests we see in the US should not be condoned? Correct? And China should be lauded for their social cohestion.

    One moment you are writing about chimpanzee behaviours which operate at the biological level. The next you are trying to use extant events in the USA and a repressive political regime in China as an attempt to make comparisons with social cohesion and social opprobrium.

    I would recommend that you definitively set out what actual point are you endeavouring to make rather than engaging in these scatter-gun comments.

    Unless you are a strict biological determinist what has that to do with advanced and complex human societies?
    No I'm not a strict determinism, but you are if you are an atheist. Because what else is there besides biology?

    I repeat that chimpanzees while having what we may term a “society” with what appear to be forms of social cohesion, operate at the biological level. I also repeat that at the biological level ethics and morality do not exist. Lionesses do not, as far as we know, display guilt or remorse after bringing down and killing a gazelle wondering if they have left a calf motherless, or whether their prey suffered unduly.
    Yet you are trying to tie ethics to social cohesion, which is foolish. North Korea has great social cohesion.


    The earliest evidence of organised warfare comes from Sumer so we are looking back to the fourth millennium BCE. Given the length of time Homo sapiens have existed, that is comparatively recent.
    And how do you know what the ancient Homo sapiens were doing concerning warfare before written history?

    The intention of the earliest white settlers in the continent was not “to displace or destroy the native tribes”. From where did you receive that eccentric idea? The first Europeans to arrive in the Americas were the Spanish and they were seeking mineral resources. Violence towards the indigenous peoples followed as colonisation was enforced but that was not the primary reason for those Spanish voyages.

    The expansion of white settlers across what is now the continental USA [and of course Canada] was likewise for resources, initially this was land, and then when discoveries were made, minerals.

    Furthermore, you ignore the political implications that were paramount from the early seventeenth century. The establishment of colonies by Spain, France and England [later Britain] greatly benefitted the economic power as well as the political reach of those respective European countries.
    That does not change anything I said.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

  9. #49
    tWebber NorrinRadd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ana Dragule View Post
    John 3:9-11 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.” So the people asked him, saying, “What shall we do then?” He answered and said to them, “He who has two tunics, let him give to him who has none; and he who has food, let him do likewise.”
    The first thing to note, as is often pointed out in these discussions, and has been already alluded to in this one, is that most conservatives view "socialism" as a form of government of nations, and take the words of Jesus as instructions to the Church. So the giving would be voluntary obedience to Him, not legally imposed confiscation by the State.

    The second thing to note is that you are quoting John the Baptist, not Jesus, and are quoting from Luke's Gospel, not John's. This is somewhat of a nitpick that I note only because this part of the discussion deals with Firstfloor's claims about what Jesus would teach.

    The third thing to note is that the very post to which you responded shows that Scripture, and Jesus, do not speak in monotone. Disparate ideas can find support.

    The fourth thing to note is that indeed Jesus *does* firmly support generosity and sacrificial giving. In several such contexts -- Luke 6 and Mark 10 come to mind -- Jesus explicitly promises that the generous giver will in turn be rewarded with even more. The former passage suggests and the latter explicitly states that the reward will come in THIS life. Apart from "Prosperity" believers, most do not take that promise literally; in that case, the command also should not be taken literally.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

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    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

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    tWebber NorrinRadd's Avatar
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    Relating to Prager's article -- In my experience, even most "Christians" are put off by the claim that people are not basically "good."
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    Beige Nationalist.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

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