Speaking of conspiracy theories

[rogue06]

Like roguetech is?

roguetech openly rigs thing in favor of roguetech.

[oxmixmudd]

Uh-huh, they just hold high-level discussions but never actually do anything. Totally plausible.

Actually, it is only implausible if being tempted to take an action necessarily means that people will give into that temptation:


It goes something like this.

A) X is going on that is wrong
B) We have the power to possibly do something about X.
C) What would we do if we did something?
D) Wouldn't those actions violate Y principles that we adhere to?
E) Ok, it looks like we can't do anything about X without violating Y.

So it goes to character. Character like Trump has demonstrated many times in the past would imply they likely would not adhere to their principles if it looked like violating them could make things better for themselves. But many people in the world actually have moral fiber, moral character, and live according to principles, not just what is the most convenient path in the moment.

We all have a civic duty to try to correct wrongs if we can do so without violating our own ethical standards. So I don't fault them for asking the questions. It is often the process of asking questions and following the logical conclusions that derive from an initial idea that we discover what we can or can't do. That is what 'brainstorming' is all about.

The issue is what did they do, if anything. And the fact is, if they did nothing, then these emails show that even when tempted to act, they chose to adhere to their principles, which would actually show them less likely to be or have been involved in conspiracies to manipulate results.


Jim

[One Bad Pig]

Here's the relevant bit MM didn't quote:

Source: ibid

These emails were just a brainstorm of ideas, none of which were ever implemented,” a company spokeswoman said in a statement. “Google has never manipulated its search results or modified any of its products to promote a particular political ideology—not in the current campaign season, not during the 2016 election, and not in the aftermath of President Trump’s executive order on immigration.

© Copyright Original Source

Which is a flat out lie at least in the China market, where Google has worked hand in hand with government censors to supress thought the government didn't like.

[Roy]

Which is a flat out lie at least in the China market, where Google has worked hand in hand with government censors to supress thought the government didn't like.

Yeah, if they do restart their co-operation with the Chinese government (as they're currently proposing) that'd definitely be "modifying their products to promote a political ideology", albeit to satisfy Chinese law not to further any political agenda of Google. Perhaps DJT should try the Chinese approach?

[oxmixmudd]

Which is a flat out lie at least in the China market, where Google has worked hand in hand with government censors to supress thought the government didn't like.

Doesn't apply here OBP.

In China, it's either 'modify your search results or we shut you out completely'. It's not just google - it's any search engine or business operating in China. Their only choice is to comply. They fought it, but that is how it works in China. Now I suppose they could just say ok - we won't operate in China under those restrictions. Perhaps it would be worth it if all the free market search engines refused, but that just isn't the case. They all have to follow Chinese government policy to operate there and anything operating there is to some extent or another censoring what they present to avoid being kicked out of China.

Jim

[oxmixmudd]

Yeah, if they do restart their co-operation with the Chinese government (as they're currently proposing) that'd definitely be "modifying their products to promote a political ideology", albeit to satisfy Chinese law not to further any political agenda of Google. Perhaps DJT should try the Chinese approach?

I'm sure if he could, he would.

Jim

[rogue06]

Doesn't apply here rogue.

You're addressing something that roy wrote.

[rogue06]

Yeah, if they do restart their co-operation with the Chinese government (as they're currently proposing) that'd definitely be "modifying their products to promote a political ideology", albeit to satisfy Chinese law not to further any political agenda of Google. Perhaps DJT should try the Chinese approach?

Sounds more like what the previous president would approve of considering his egregious record of actually acting against the press rather than merely calling them names.

[oxmixmudd]

You're addressing something that roy wrote.

not really, I think it was OBP i was actually responding to, anyway, updated

Jim

[Sparko]

Doesn't apply here OBP.

In China, it's either 'modify your search results or we shut you out completely'. It's not just google - it's any search engine or business operating in China. Their only choice is to comply. They fought it, but that is how it works in China. Now I suppose they could just say ok - we won't operate in China under those restrictions. Perhaps it would be worth it if all the free market search engines refused, but that just isn't the case. They all have to follow Chinese government policy to operate there and anything operating there is to some extent or another censoring what they present to avoid being kicked out of China.

Jim

Weren't you the one arguing that principals are more important than supporting someone who is immoral? Why aren't you arguing that Google should refuse to bend to China's immoral demands instead of just going with the flow?

[One Bad Pig]

Doesn't apply here OBP.

In China, it's either 'modify your search results or we shut you out completely'. It's not just google - it's any search engine or business operating in China. Their only choice is to comply. They fought it, but that is how it works in China. Now I suppose they could just say ok - we won't operate in China under those restrictions. Perhaps it would be worth it if all the free market search engines refused, but that just isn't the case. They all have to follow Chinese government policy to operate there and anything operating there is to some extent or another censoring what they present to avoid being kicked out of China.

Jim

Google felt free to pull out of Spain rather than comply with Spain's rules.

[Roy]

Google felt free to pull out of Spain rather than comply with Spain's rules.

They also pulled out of China rather than comply with China's rules, back in 2010. They may be reversing that decision.

[oxmixmudd]

Weren't you the one arguing that principals are more important than supporting someone who is immoral? Why aren't you arguing that Google should refuse to bend to China's immoral demands instead of just going with the flow?

Actually - that is another argument Sparko. The idea I'm dealing with here is whether or not Google changing its search engine policy in response to a government's demands is the same as Google's management, when it has full choice in the matter, deciding to change it's search engine policy to further it's own goals and interests. And I'm saying it is not.

However, given the fact I have limited time and resources to respond to these posts, I am not going to try to address every possible moral quandary that might arise from dealing with China in a single reply, nor is my point invalid because I did not try to address every possible moral quandary that could arise from doing business with China.


Jim

[oxmixmudd]

They also pulled out of China rather than comply with China's rules, back in 2010. They may be reversing that decision.

Yeah - I thought they had done that but the current conversation led me to think they had already reversed that decision. Imagine, faulting google for not withdrawing over issues such as these when they actually already did that. I guess I just need to assume people are always distorting the truth or just misinformed and check every possible angle before I reply.

Sigh.


Jim

[Sparko]

Yeah - I thought they had done that but the current conversation led me to think they had already reversed that decision. Imagine, faulting google for not withdrawing over issues such as these when they actually already did that. I guess I just need to assume people are always distorting the truth or just misinformed and check every possible angle before I reply.

Sigh.


Jim

-------
Censorship is why [google pulled out of China]. Google effectively shut down its Chinese operations after it discovered a cyberattack from within the country that targeted it and dozens of other companies. And while investigating the attack, Google found that the Gmail accounts of a number of Chinese human-rights activists had been hacked.

Google had set up shop in China four years before the breach, offering a version of its services that conformed to the government’s oppressive censorship policies. At the time, Google officials said they’d decided that the most ethical option was to offer some services—albeit restricted by China’s censors—to the enormous Chinese market, rather than leave millions of Internet users with limited access to information.

But the 2010 attacks prompted the company to reverse course.

https://www.theatlantic.com/technolo...g-back/424482/

So no, they didn't pull out for moral reasons. They had already caved in that area. And now they are wanting back in and willing to cave even more.



sigh.