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  • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    As far as I can tell, the ratio isn't appreciably worse than it's ever been. On the other hand, there are vastly more people in the "middle class" now than has been the case in the past. And, especially in America, even the poor tend to have things like electricity, phones, and running water, making them immeasurably better off than the poor of old.
    It has increased substantially. See here. That said, on average, it is actually less than 100 to 1, but still much higher than it has been in the last 40 years.

    I agree with you on the rest of it. Capitalism has lifted then entire country to unparalleled prosperity (even the poor).

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Alsharad View Post
      It has increased substantially. See here. That said, on average, it is actually less than 100 to 1, but still much higher than it has been in the last 40 years.

      I agree with you on the rest of it. Capitalism has lifted then entire country to unparalleled prosperity (even the poor).
      I'm talking much further back than 40 years.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        As far as I can tell, the ratio isn't appreciably worse than it's ever been. On the other hand, there are vastly more people in the "middle class" now than has been the case in the past. And, especially in America, even the poor tend to have things like electricity, phones, and running water, making them immeasurably better off than the poor of old.
        For the most part the poor in America today enjoy a standard of living as good if not better than the Middle Class did in the late 50s and 60s. Not only have they seen huge increases in availability in food and health care but they are far more likely to have things like phones, cars, AC and central heating.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          For the most part the poor in America today enjoy a standard of living as good if not better than the Middle Class did in the late 50s and 60s. Not only have they seen huge increases in availability in food and health care but they are far more likely to have things like phones, cars, AC and central heating.
          you can go to the global rich list and type in your income to see where you are in world wealthiest people.

          The current poverty level in the USA is $22,000. That works out to be in the top 2.83% of the richest people in the world.

          If you halve it to $11K they are still in the top $15.18%!

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          • Originally posted by Alsharad View Post
            I do want to mention that I do take issue that the salary ratio of highest to lowest paid employee has ballooned to ridiculous levels. I think that there is definitely something wrong. However, what is wrong is that our culture is devoid of virtue. That is not something that legislation can fix. We glorify wealth rather than generosity. We glorify self over others. What do you expect when you practically eliminate moral standards and undermine their very bases. If I do not have to value you as a person, then there is nothing wrong with using you as a means to an end - my personal wealth. If you argue that I do have to value you as a person, I'd ask you to empirically prove it and provide evidence for your belief.
            I'll argue that an individual doesn't have to value the lives of others, and no one can force them to, but if as a democratic community we disagree with their ideas concerning human lives, it's too bad for them. So greed is something that legislation can fix, to a degree it already does, and it's the only thing that can fix it.

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            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
              I'll argue that an individual doesn't have to value the lives of others, and no one can force them to, but if as a democratic community we disagree with their ideas concerning human lives, it's too bad for them. So greed is something that legislation can fix, to a degree it already does, and it's the only thing that can fix it.
              Life isn't fair JimL, and even though our system allows some people to become exceedingly rich, and be jerks about it and treat others like garbage, that same system allows some people to become exceedingly rich and take care of others, and it allows anyone to work their way up the ladder of success, or start their own business, and it has created the largest middle class of any society in history. Don't fix what isn't broken.

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              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                I'll argue that an individual doesn't have to value the lives of others, and no one can force them to, but if as a democratic community we disagree with their ideas concerning human lives, it's too bad for them. So greed is something that legislation can fix, to a degree it already does, and it's the only thing that can fix it.
                Legislation is written by those who tend to be greedy themselves; all it typically does is gratify one person's (or group's) greed at the expense of others'. The only One who can fix greed is the God you reject.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  Life isn't fair JimL, and even though our system allows some people to become exceedingly rich, and be jerks about it and treat others like garbage, that same system allows some people to become exceedingly rich and take care of others, and it allows anyone to work their way up the ladder of success, or start their own business, and it has created the largest middle class of any society in history. Don't fix what isn't broken.
                  What century are you living in, Sparko. I'm not sure what system you're talking about, but our system allows us to, and we obviously have, make laws which brought the middle class into, and help to sustain, their existence. We fix it all the time, that's what government does. Thank you FDR.

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                  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                    What century are you living in, Sparko. I'm not sure what system you're talking about, but our system allows us to, and we obviously have, make laws which brought the middle class into, and help to sustain, their existence. We fix it all the time, that's what government does. Thank you FDR.


                    I never said anything about laws one way or the other. I am talking about a free market society under capitalism. Where everyone is free to succeed or fail on their own.

                    I have found it is useless to discuss economics with someone who is completely ignorant of the topic, like you.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                      I'll argue that an individual doesn't have to value the lives of others, and no one can force them to, but if as a democratic community we disagree with their ideas concerning human lives, it's too bad for them. So greed is something that legislation can fix, to a degree it already does, and it's the only thing that can fix it.
                      Do you realize that you are endorsing the federal government taking away money from one set of citizens and giving it to another set of citizens? That is tyranny. The fact that you think it is justified doesn't change what it is. It is tyranny, plain and simple. One of the core principles of liberty is that of ownership. I have a right to what I earn. You do not have a right to what I earn. Using the government to take what I earn and give it to you is tyrannical and violates the principles of property rights, ownership, and liberty.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Alsharad View Post
                        Do you realize that you are endorsing the federal government taking away money from one set of citizens and giving it to another set of citizens? That is tyranny
                        Yes, I do, we call it democracy and taxes, not tyranny.
                        The fact that you think it is justified doesn't change what it is. It is tyranny, plain and simple.
                        No, it's not tyranny, it's called democracy.

                        One of the core principles of liberty is that of ownership. I have a right to what I earn.
                        You have a responsibility in a democracy to pay your taxes for the good of the country to which you are a member.

                        You do not have a right to what I earn.
                        That depends upon the majority opinion. I assume you agree that you are obligated to pay taxes, the only difference is what you consider to be of utmost important when it comes to where that money goes. Some of us think that people in need are of the utmost importance. That is not only for altruistic reasons either.

                        Using the government to take what I earn and give it to you is tyrannical and violates the principles of property rights, ownership, and liberty.
                        Well that's your opinion, which is why you're a conservative, but this is a democracy and the liberal position is that we take care of those in need to the best of our ability without infringing to much on the rights of others. We pay taxes partly for that purpose, "To promote the general welfare."

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                          Yes, I do, we call it democracy and taxes, not tyranny.
                          Jim, the 4th amendment imbeds in the constitution the fundamental liberty of property ownership. The very concepts of life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness imply that property rights are unalienable rights (meaning not granted by the government). Consider James Madison:

                          Originally posted by James Madison - "Address at the Virginia Convention"
                          It is sufficiently obvious, that persons and property are the two great subjects on which Governments are to act; and that the rights of persons, and the rights of property, are the objects, for the protection of which Government was instituted. These rights cannot well be separated. The personal right to acquire property, which is a natural right, gives to property, when acquired, a right to protection, as a social right.
                          Government is here to protect our property, not to take it. You can argue that we owe taxes, but that is the government justification for violating our rights, not because the government has a right to our money. The Virginia Bill of Rights states that all men "have certain inherent rights . . . namely, the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the means of acquiring and possessing property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety."

                          No, it's not tyranny, it's called democracy.
                          Socialism and socialistic legislation is tyranny by definition. In socialism, the government has the right to your property and you do not.

                          You have a responsibility in a democracy to pay your taxes for the good of the country to which you are a member.
                          You can think that, but the founding fathers didn't. You pay taxes so that the government can protect you and your property.

                          That depends upon the majority opinion. I assume you agree that you are obligated to pay taxes, the only difference is what you consider to be of utmost important when it comes to where that money goes. Some of us think that people in need are of the utmost importance. That is not only for altruistic reasons either.
                          Liberty is more important that poverty. Don't you get that? The government exists to protect our inherent (meaning not granted by government) rights of life, freedom, property, and the chance to achieve happiness. I pay taxes because the government should be doing that. The government does not have a right to my money, and neither do you. If you think otherwise, or your think that the majority can decide, then you stand in stark contrast to the founding fathers and are the epitome of the very thinking that they rebelled against.

                          Well that's your opinion, which is why you're a conservative, but this is a democracy and the liberal position is that we take care of those in need to the best of our ability without infringing to much on the rights of others. We pay taxes partly for that purpose, "To promote the general welfare."
                          It is the opinion of the founding fathers. If you want to take care of those in need form a charity and do that. Don't use the coercive power of the government to take what I earned and give it to someone that didn't.

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