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  • #91
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    I don't see any data here, Jim - let alone such putative data's provenance.
    You don't care to see data, OBP. If you did, you'd see it!

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by JimL View Post
      And I keep explaining to you that it doesn't matter what he did, what matters is the results and the result was that we went from a near depression, 10% unemployment, losing 800,000 jobs a month to 4% unemployment and gaining 200,000 jobs a month. Trumps tax cuts and deregulation may be good for business and profits, but they aren't good for the enviroment or for creating the jobs at the rate they were created before he took office, nor are they helping the average American.
      Pretty sure that the average American is taking home more money now than they were 4 years ago.

      If what you care about is making the rich even richer,
      You mean making everyone richer... yes, the rich get richer. Tell me, do you work for a poor person? I don't. Rich people create jobs. Poor people don't. Why do you care if the rich get richer so long as the poor don't get poorer?

      making health insurance more expensive, unaffordable to millions,
      It already was unaffordable to millions. And it was policies that demanded that insurance companies essentially subsidize bad behavior that caused the issues. I mean, I am all for "no pre-existing conditions", but it would be foolish to think that the insurance prices would remain unchanged when they are forced to carry someone that they know for a fact will lose them money.

      destroying the environment in the name of profits
      Like when the US did better at reducing emissions than any of the Paris accord members?

      all while increasing the deficit by a trillion dollars unnecessarily
      Trump only has veto power over spending bills. He cannot increase the deficit. And if you knew about the infinite horizon fiscal gap, you would know that deficit and national debt are largely meaningless at this point. You want to blame exploding debt and deficits, blame the senators and representatives for the last 20 years.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by JimL View Post
        We, or at least I, am talking data, rogue, not the "there were a lot of complaints" type of argument. The facts are that everyone including blacks were doing better under the Obama's Administration
        Umm, no. There are threads here discussing the data from back then that if I remember to do so I'll see if I can find this afternoon.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by JimL View Post
          You don't care to see data, OBP. If you did, you'd see it!
          There you go "reading my mind" again, Jim. As usual, you have no idea what you're talking about.
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Alsharad View Post
            Pretty sure that the average American is taking home more money now than they were 4 years ago.
            I'm pretty sure you're wrong. Any small gains in tax cuts are lost to continued stagnant wages, increasing healthcare costs, and then there's inflation. Trump has been in office for 2 years, not 4.

            You mean making everyone richer... yes, the rich get richer.
            Everyone? The only ones feeling richer are those at the top where the tax cuts actually had an effect.

            Tell me, do you work for a poor person? I don't. Rich people create jobs. Poor people don't. Why do you care if the rich get richer so long as the poor don't get poorer?
            Thats what your ilk doesn't seem to understand, we don't care if people get rich, that's a good thing, so long as the wealth is fairly distributed. That hasn't been the case in a very long time in this country and that's because the rich have been pulling the political strings.


            It already was unaffordable to millions.
            Glad you agree, now maybe you'll vote for those who will do something about it rather than giving huge tax breaks to those who don't need it.


            And it was policies that demanded that insurance companies essentially subsidize bad behavior that caused the issues. I mean, I am all for "no pre-existing conditions", but it would be foolish to think that the insurance prices would remain unchanged when they are forced to carry someone that they know for a fact will lose them money.
            Insurance companies would love your illogic. If the "health" insurance companies are only interested in insuring the healthy, then they don't belong in the "health" insurance business. We as a people don't have to make the Insurance companies more and more profitable at the expense of our own health and costs.


            Like when the US did better at reducing emissions than any of the Paris accord members?
            Cherry pick much. First off that's rubbish, second we're talking environmental, not just climate regulations. Do you know that corporations are not only polluting the atmosphere which is causing catostrophic weather events, they are poisoning the food that you eat, the water we drink, polluting the rivers and the land? No, I don't suspect you do!


            Trump only has veto power over spending bills. He cannot increase the deficit.
            Oh, I see, so the republican Congress is responsible for the increased debt and deficit under Obama?

            And if you knew about the infinite horizon fiscal gap, you would know that deficit and national debt are largely meaningless at this point. You want to blame exploding debt and deficits, blame the senators and representatives for the last 20 years.
            You blame them both, and sometimes it's necessary, sometimes it's not. Under Obama it was necessary, there was a banking crisis and we were in a deep recession that required spending to get out from under. We're not in that situation now.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by JimL View Post
              I'm pretty sure you're wrong. Any small gains in tax cuts are lost to continued stagnant wages, increasing healthcare costs, and then there's inflation. Trump has been in office for 2 years, not 4.


              Everyone? The only ones feeling richer are those at the top where the tax cuts actually had an effect.
              Wow I must be at the top then! I am getting a lot more than I did two years ago. And just from the tax break I am making about $1500 more a year!



              Thats what your ilk doesn't seem to understand, we don't care if people get rich, that's a good thing, so long as the wealth is fairly distributed.
              Translation: we don't care if people get rich as long as we get their money!


              Comment


              • #97
                I too noticed an improvement from the tax cut.
                I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                  I too noticed an improvement from the tax cut.
                  It's just your imagination! You are worse off!!! Trump is stealing your money and using it to buy off Russians! /JimL mode.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Wow I must be at the top then! I am getting a lot more than I did two years ago. And just from the tax break I am making about $1500 more a year!
                    Yeah, and when you factor in inflation, not to mention health care cost, that extra $25 or $30 dollars a week which you claim to be getting, isn't getting you anywhere. But the corporations and the wealthy CEO's are rolling in it, and they ain't passing it on down to you.


                    Translation: we don't care if people get rich as long as we get their money!

                    Wrong stupid, we don't care if they get rich, we want them to get rich, we just want to make sure they treat fairly those who do the work that makes them richer. They can check their greed and do that on their own, or we can do it by legislation.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                      I'm pretty sure you're wrong. Any small gains in tax cuts are lost to continued stagnant wages, increasing healthcare costs, and then there's inflation. Trump has been in office for 2 years, not 4.
                      I know that Trump has only been in office for 2 years. 4 years ago people were full on in the middle of the Obama economy. And don't forget that the bulk of the tax cuts were aimed at businesses (including small business owners). Those people are responsible for a huge chunk of the economy and the GDP. Most people and businesses have received marginal to significant improvements in their cash flow.

                      Everyone? The only ones feeling richer are those at the top where the tax cuts actually had an effect.
                      I am not sure how you are qualified to speak on behalf of the feelings of hundreds of millions of Americans. Please cite your authority and how you came to know this amazing fact.

                      Thats what your ilk doesn't seem to understand, we don't care if people get rich, that's a good thing, so long as the wealth is fairly distributed. That hasn't been the case in a very long time in this country and that's because the rich have been pulling the political strings.
                      And who gets to decide what is fair? If you agree for me to pay you to do something for $10/hr, how is that unfair? How is it even relevant if I am making $100/hr? Are you somehow entitled to a portion of my salary because you work for me? Why should you get more money if you do not bring anything else to the table?

                      Glad you agree, now maybe you'll vote for those who will do something about it rather than giving huge tax breaks to those who don't need it.
                      Yeah... no... I want the government out of it entirely. And frankly, as someone who has had to go without insurance because I couldn't afford it, I can straight up tell you that healthcare is NOT a right. I would actually prefer for insurance companies to have to really compete, or disappear entirely. They screw up the market by concealing costs and lending themselves to abuse. Government should definitely stay away from it.

                      Insurance companies would love your illogic. If the "health" insurance companies are only interested in insuring the healthy, then they don't belong in the "health" insurance business. We as a people don't have to make the Insurance companies more and more profitable at the expense of our own health and costs.
                      Of COURSE they would prefer only healthy customers. Holy smokes, can you imagine the profit margins?! Do you not understand that government regulation is screwing up insurance costs? Here's an example: Bob owns a small 4-dwelling apartment complex. He chooses his renters carefully so as to keep costs down. Then the government tells him that he MUST rent one dwelling to a known-bad renter. Bob cannot refuse and the renter drives up his costs. Do you think Bob should just eat the cost? Do you think that Bob would raise his rent to help offset the cost and would he be right to do so?

                      Cherry pick much. First off that's rubbish
                      Ummmm... no...

                      second we're talking environmental, not just climate regulations. Do you know that corporations are not only polluting the atmosphere which is causing catostrophic weather events, they are poisoning the food that you eat, the water we drink, polluting the rivers and the land? No, I don't suspect you do!
                      Tell me which corporations are doing this and I am happy to stand with you to get them to change their ways.

                      Oh, I see, so the republican Congress is responsible for the increased debt and deficit under Obama?
                      Yes, sure, but it was Democrats that forced through the ACA. The fact is that the real way to get the economy in even better shape is to shrink the government and cut freaking spending! Then we wouldn't need as much tax revenue.

                      You blame them both, and sometimes it's necessary, sometimes it's not. Under Obama it was necessary, there was a banking crisis and we were in a deep recession that required spending to get out from under. We're not in that situation now.
                      Oh I agree that government is over-spending. But at this point, it's not going to hurt anything. The infinite horizon fiscal gap is a pretty solid way to tell how our finances look (better than National Debt or Deficit Spending). Financially, the US is hosed unless drastic measures are taken. By drastic I mean an immediate real and permanent cut of all government spending by 22% and/or a permanent tax increase on all private citizens and businesses of 22% across the board.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        Yeah, and when you factor in inflation, not to mention health care cost, that extra $25 or $30 dollars a week which you claim to be getting, isn't getting you anywhere.
                        How do you know that? For all you know, his company covers his healthcare costs entirely. And the inflation argument is a red herring. If he didn't get the extra money he would have less spending power, so he is STILL better off. The fact is that $1500 pays for a new appliance, a car repair, a new computer, etc. All things that he would not have without it. Sparko is better off no matter how you look at it.

                        But the corporations and the wealthy CEO's are rolling in it, and they ain't passing it on down to you.
                        Yes they are, they just expect something in return... it's called a job! Work for them and they give you some of their money! It's a great system! And most of the largest corporations will give you money on a regular basis, you just have to buy stock! Then they give you money for free in the form of dividends.

                        Wrong stupid, we don't care if they get rich, we want them to get rich, we just want to make sure they treat fairly those who do the work that makes them richer. They can check their greed and do that on their own, or we can do it by legislation.
                        How do you know that it is greed? How do you know that it is not earned? If I own a company and I can pay a CEO $1,000,000 to keep me from losing $5,000,000, I am going to do it. That's the thing that you don't seem to get... You seem to think that you get to decide if CEOs earn their pay. The fact is, it isn't your call. It is the business owners and board of directors and shareholders that get to decide whether a CEO is worth his salary. If you want it to be your call, get on the boards of these companies and force the CEOs to take less pay.

                        If you are dead set on legislation, then let's start with people that really don't bring much value to the economy: musicians, actors, and athletes. How would you legislate their salaries? They obviously do not deserve them, right?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                          Yeah, and when you factor in inflation, not to mention health care cost, that extra $25 or $30 dollars a week which you claim to be getting, isn't getting you anywhere. But the corporations and the wealthy CEO's are rolling in it, and they ain't passing it on down to you.
                          Nope. As I already told Starlight, inflation hasn't changed any local prices. And inflation would happen regardless of any tax breaks so even if it did raise prices, having more money to cover it is a good thing, versus NOT having extra money. Same with healthcare.

                          a recent gas price when I filled up:
                          IMG_3468.JPG



                          Wrong stupid, we don't care if they get rich, we want them to get rich, we just want to make sure they treat fairly those who do the work that makes them richer. They can check their greed and do that on their own, or we can do it by legislation.
                          Right, you expect them to give you the money that they earned and you didn't.

                          I am all for better wages, but that has nothing to do with "wealth distribution" which is what you said. Wealth distribution is taking money from the rich, usually though taxes, to give to the poor. Government playing Robin Hood, and keeping a generous portion for themselves while they are at it.

                          The free market usually takes care of overly greedy business owners. If they don't pay a decent wage they can't keep employees who make them money. Especially in a job seeker's market like we have here.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            Nope. As I already told Starlight, inflation hasn't changed any local prices. And inflation would happen regardless of any tax breaks so even if it did raise prices, having more money to cover it is a good thing, versus NOT having extra money. Same with healthcare.

                            a recent gas price when I filled up:
                            [ATTACH=CONFIG]31255[/ATTACH]




                            Right, you expect them to give you the money that they earned and you didn't.

                            I am all for better wages, but that has nothing to do with "wealth distribution" which is what you said. Wealth distribution is taking money from the rich, usually though taxes, to give to the poor. Government playing Robin Hood, and keeping a generous portion for themselves while they are at it.

                            The free market usually takes care of overly greedy business owners. If they don't pay a decent wage they can't keep employees who make them money. Especially in a job seeker's market like we have here.
                            People tend to forget that most of the rich that Robin Hood targeted to take from were government officials and tax collectors.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • I do want to mention that I do take issue that the salary ratio of highest to lowest paid employee has ballooned to ridiculous levels. I think that there is definitely something wrong. However, what is wrong is that our culture is devoid of virtue. That is not something that legislation can fix. We glorify wealth rather than generosity. We glorify self over others. What do you expect when you practically eliminate moral standards and undermine their very bases. If I do not have to value you as a person, then there is nothing wrong with using you as a means to an end - my personal wealth. If you argue that I do have to value you as a person, I'd ask you to empirically prove it and provide evidence for your belief.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Alsharad View Post
                                I do want to mention that I do take issue that the salary ratio of highest to lowest paid employee has ballooned to ridiculous levels. I think that there is definitely something wrong. However, what is wrong is that our culture is devoid of virtue. That is not something that legislation can fix. We glorify wealth rather than generosity. We glorify self over others. What do you expect when you practically eliminate moral standards and undermine their very bases. If I do not have to value you as a person, then there is nothing wrong with using you as a means to an end - my personal wealth. If you argue that I do have to value you as a person, I'd ask you to empirically prove it and provide evidence for your belief.
                                As far as I can tell, the ratio isn't appreciably worse than it's ever been. On the other hand, there are vastly more people in the "middle class" now than has been the case in the past. And, especially in America, even the poor tend to have things like electricity, phones, and running water, making them immeasurably better off than the poor of old.
                                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                                sigpic
                                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                                Comment

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