Trump's true colors ...

[Littlejoe]

Why would you get that impression? I don't recall, e.g., that your Christianity has been repeatedly called into question, as has been the case here. I don't exhaustively read Civics, however, so it's possible I've missed the worst of what's been said about you.

One word....Darth...

[KingsGambit]

Why would you get that impression? I don't recall, e.g., that your Christianity has been repeatedly called into question, as has been the case here. I don't exhaustively read Civics, however, so it's possible I've missed the worst of what's been said about you.

I have been accused of supporting rape by multiple posters, called "sperm donor", called "idiot" repeatedly, and a number of other things not worth repeating.

[Cow Poke]

I've been repeatedly called "idiot" and worse by fellow Christians on this site for my political opinions, more times than I could count, and by numerous Christian posters, but nobody ever said anything. I get the impression that it's only worth bringing up when it's about Trump.

I haven't seen any of that with regards to you, KG - not saying it didn't happen, no reason to doubt you at all. And I DO hate it when the Christians get into a fight in front of the pagans.

[Cow Poke]

One word....Darth...

One word.... :blech:


DRAT!

[oxmixmudd]

Why would you get that impression? I don't recall, e.g., that your Christianity has been repeatedly called into question, as has been the case here. I don't exhaustively read Civics, however, so it's possible I've missed the worst of what's been said about you.

One critical point. To say "I think doing this is wrong" is not to call a persons Christianity into question. It is to call the actions into question. To say, this thing you are doing is wrong, stop doing it is to call the brother to repentance, something we are to do.

I have not nor do I question the sincerity or depth of anyone's faith here. I question your judgement in supporting Trump's actions when they are indefensible. I sincerely believe a large number of you have been led down the primrose path by a virtual madman. And all of my posts on this are made in absolute sincerity with love and a very great concern as to how such otherwise upright and solid men whose only desire as far as I can tell is to serve God could possibly have gotten themselives so thoroughly tangled up in this mess.

Jim

[Zymologist]

One critical point. To say "I think doing this is wrong" is not to call a persons Christianity into question. It is to call the actions into question. To say, this thing you are doing is wrong, stop doing it is to call the brother to repentance, something we are to do.

I have not nor do I question the sincerity or depth of anyone's faith here. I question your judgement in supporting Trump's actions when they are indefensible. I sincerely believe a large number of you have been led down the primrose path by a virtual madman. And all of my posts on this are made in absolute sincerity with love and a very great concern as to how such otherwise upright and solid men whose only desire as far as I can tell is to serve God could possibly have gotten themselives so thoroughly tangled up in this mess.

Jim

It's not "I think this is wrong" that I take issue with--no problem there. It's stuff like "Your commitment to Trump is absolute" and a bunch of similar statements.

[One Bad Pig]

One critical point. To say "I think doing this is wrong" is not to call a persons Christianity into question. It is to call the actions into question. To say, this thing you are doing is wrong, stop doing it is to call the brother to repentance, something we are to do.

I have not nor do I question the sincerity or depth of anyone's faith here. I question your judgement in supporting Trump's actions when they are indefensible. I sincerely believe a large number of you have been led down the primrose path by a virtual madman. And all of my posts on this are made in absolute sincerity with love and a very great concern as to how such otherwise upright and solid men whose only desire as far as I can tell is to serve God could possibly have gotten themselives so thoroughly tangled up in this mess.

Jim

I don't recall ever supporting an indefensible action of Trump. You have called the Christianity into question of those who support, well, pretty much anything done by Trump and continually impugned their integrity. Given the charged rhetoric of your many posts on Trump, your sanctimony here rings a little hollow. I think you are sincere, but not aware of just how unhinged you're coming across. Try not to confuse sincerity with being correct in your views.

[One Bad Pig]

One word....Darth...

Ovious?

[Cow Poke]

I sincerely believe a large number of you have been led down the primrose path by a virtual madman.

A) I voted 'for' him as the lesser of two evils based on information I had at the time
2) It's not terribly unusual for God to use even evil men to accomplish his plans
C) I'm thrilled with the SCOTUS progress, which was one of the main reasons I voted for Trump
D) I never expected him to be a pillar of virtue

This "led down the primrose path" is, in my opinion, a good example of your bad conclusion jumping. :sad;

[Cow Poke]

It's not "I think this is wrong" that I take issue with--no problem there. It's stuff like "Your commitment to Trump is absolute" and a bunch of similar statements.

Yeah, we EXPECT that from posters like JimL.

[oxmixmudd]

It is very common in this age to reject the possibility that another person can legitimately say that some action taken is wrong. But a fundamental essence of Christian faith is the call to repentance. But if no person is allowed to say "I believe this is wrong" without it being interpreted as some sort of holier than though judgement, the call to repentance is impossible to make. I am pointing out things that are wrong and the obvious contradictions those wrong things are relative to what Jesus has said and taught. It is your own conscience that interprets that is calling into question your Christian faith.

So to say "how can you as a Christian support X" is not to say "you are not a Christian", it is to say "look at what X is and look at what Christ taught - how are they compatible".

I AM appealing to your conscience. I am appealing to what Christ taught and how it does not line up with X. If that makes you feel guilty, perhaps it is because they actually don't line up and you need to think about what that means in terms of who you are. If that makes you mad, then first ask 'is that true' rather than get mad just because I had the gall to say it.

But I also know that over the last 30 years or so evangelical Christianity has in many ways lost its connection with 1 Corinthians 13 and Jesus Sermon on the Mount. Or the content of John's Epistles. In many areas the American Evangelical church as lost her way.It is very much technical theology and 'being right' by some pseudo Judaic law derived from the New Testament. But actual compassion for the poor and our duty to people that have less has mostly gone out the window. We have 'the prosperity Gospel' instead of vows of poverty. We have 'tough love' instead of compassion. We have 'great teachers' that we idolize and worship and that entertain thousands every Sunday (and that in many cases line up behind Trump) rather than simple, obscure men of God living out their lives as humble pastors and looking out for the well being of the people in their churches. And because of that, being asked to look at what Jesus said on the Sermon on the mount or what our obligation is to the poor 'feels' to many like 'liberal' ideology. Well maybe, just maybe, since Jesus taught things like that (and more), the Liberals are not totally wrong on those things?

Look, I'm just going to keep calling it as I see it. I have told you - straight up - that I do not doubt the sincerity of the faith of anyone here. You can believe that or not. That is your choice. But the Christian community's tendency to support Trump when he is acting in gross contradiction to Christ's teachings is wrong, and it is hypocritical relative to what Jesus taught on so many levels. And I'm not going to stop saying that in the hopes the either

1) I help some others to understand the contradiction that supporting Trump on many of these issues represents.
2) You guys help me to see that I am wrong.

Or as it is with most situation like this, some combination of both.



Jim

[Zymologist]

"Your commitment to Trump is absolute" is not the same as "I think this is wrong."

[oxmixmudd]

"Your commitment to Trump is absolute" is not the same as "I think this is wrong."

In that you are correct. It is a reaction to the fact that as of yet, not one of you that says you do not support Donald Trump but fight tireless against what I'm saying has been willing to actually voice criticism of any of the actions or policies I've drawn attention to. Actions and Policies that are in clear contradiction of basic moral principles either taught directly by Christ or in derivation from them.

But any statement like that is made in the sincere hope that it is NOT true, and that having said it it will motivate some of you to make statements and take actions that show that statement is NOT in fact correct. IOW, I'm trying to goad you into being and doing the right thing. The goal is to motivate to change, not to pronounce judgement. The goal is to call attention to what Christ taight about these things in the hopes that will be enough said.

And that is true of EVERYTHING I have said so far on these pages.


im

[Cow Poke]

It is very common in this age to reject the possibility that another person can legitimately say that some action taken is wrong. But a fundamental essence of Christian faith is the call to repentance. But if no person is allowed to say "I believe this is wrong" without it being interpreted as some sort of holier than though judgement, the call to repentance is impossible to make. I am pointing out things that are wrong and the obvious contradictions those wrong things are relative to what Jesus has said and taught. It is your own conscience that interprets that is calling into question your Christian faith.

So to say "how can you as a Christian support X" is not to say "you are not a Christian", it is to say "look at what X is and look at what Christ taught - how are they compatible".

I AM appealing to your conscience. I am appealing to what Christ taught and how it does not line up with X. If that makes you feel guilty, perhaps it is because they actually don't line up and you need to think about what that means in terms of who you are. If that makes you mad, then first ask 'is that true' rather than get mad just because I had the gall to say it.

But I also know that over the last 30 years or so evangelical Christianity has in many ways lost its connection with 1 Corinthians 13 and Jesus Sermon on the Mount. Or the content of John's Epistles. In many areas the American Evangelical church as lost her way.It is very much technical theology and 'being right' by some pseudo Judaic law derived from the New Testament. But actual compassion for the poor and our duty to people that have less has mostly gone out the window. We have 'the prosperity Gospel' instead of vows of poverty. We have 'tough love' instead of compassion. We have 'great teachers' that we idolize and worship and that entertain thousands every Sunday (and that in many cases line up behind Trump) rather than simple, obscure men of God living out their lives as humble pastors and looking out for the well being of the people in their churches. And because of that, being asked to look at what Jesus said on the Sermon on the mount or what our obligation is to the poor 'feels' to you like liberal ideology. Well maybe, just maybe, since Jesus taught things like that (and more), the Liberals are not totally wrong on those things?

Look, I'm just going to keep calling it as I see it. I have told you - straight up - that I do not doubt the sincerity of the faith of anyone here. You can believe that or not. That is your choice. But the Christian community's tendency to support Trump when he is acting in gross contradiction to Christ's teachings is wrong, and it is hypocritical relative to what Jesus taught on so many levels. And I'm not going to stop saying that in the hopes the either

1) I help some others to understand the contradiction that supporting Trump on many of these issues represents.
2) You guys help me to see that I am wrong.

Or as it is with most situation like this, some combination of both.



Jim

That's all well and good, Jim, but my concern is your propensity to make assumptions about us like we've "been led down the primrose path" or that we totally support Trump's character.

If Trump were presenting himself as a preacher or 'pastor in chief', I'd be obliged to call him out. He's an incredibly flawed man doing really stupid things, but he's still the duly elected POTUS. God even used Babylon, a “ruthless” and “dreaded” nation, to achieve His purpose. (Habakkuk 5:1-5)

I think you're wrong in your assumptions on the level to which some of us "support" Trump, and I really wish you'd reign in the broad brush a bit.

[Zymologist]

In that you are correct. It is a reaction to the fact that as of yet, not one of you that says you do not support Donald Trump has been willing to actually voice criticism of any of the actions and policies I've drawn attention to. Actions and Policies that are in clear contradiction of basic moral principles either taught directly by Christ or in derivation from them. And this is especially true of Mountain Man, who IIRC is that target of that statement.

But any statement like that is made in the sincere hope that it is NOT true, and that it will motivate some of you to make statements and take actions that show that statement is NOT in fact correct. IOW, I'm trying to goad you into being and doing the right thing. The goal is to motivate to change, not to pronounce judgement. That is true of EVERYTHING I have said so far on these pages.


im

That was just an example of the numerous times you've impugned character of many of the Christians on this board. For you to repeatedly say "All I'm saying is I think this is wrong" when that's very clearly not all you're saying is...weird.

If I misinterpreted the "commitment to Trump" statement as being directed toward a group, rather than Mountain Man, then maybe you might rethink how you're coming across? Because it's not the first time you've made insinuations like that. But rereading that particular post, it was stated in the immediate context of "each of you," so I don't think my interpretation of it is unreasonable.

Just to be clear, I didn't vote for Trump. Unless something changes between now and 2020, I expect I'll abstain. I think he's an adulterer and a loudmouth. But, feel free to lump me in and smear my character, too.