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Thread: Book Plunge: Evangelical Exodus

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    Department Head Apologiaphoenix's Avatar
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    Book Plunge: Evangelical Exodus

    Why did SES students become Catholics?

    Link

    -----

    What do I think of Doug Beaumont and Francis Beckwith's book published by Ignatius Press? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    This book is the story of several people who graduated from Southern Evangelical Seminary (SES) and went on to become Catholics. I attended SES, but due to the situation with Geisler going after Mike Licona, who became my father-in-law while I was there, I never graduated. I chose to leave first.

    That's one reason I am very hesitant to write this review. I don't know everyone in the book, but some I do know and I consider friends. I have my criticisms of their arguments, but I do not wish to diminish friendship at all.

    Let's state something at the beginning. This book argues against Protestantism, but I would not classify it as anti-Protestant because Beaumont and others speaking in the book still say that Protestants are Christians. I, meanwhile, work happily with many Catholics and have no problem seeing them as Christians. We have some substantial issues however and those are worth discussing.

    Doug Beaumont's story is the first one. One key theme throughout the book that shows up in his story is, "How do we know our interpretation is correct?" Unfortunately, I think such a question is not a good one to ask. There can be reason to doubt anything. What needs to be asked is "Is my interpretation an informed interpretation?" If someone then wants to say "Well how do you know it's correct?" I would just ask for a good argument against it to show that I am wrong.

    Something sad in the chapter also was Beaumont speaking about the church of the Seminary falling apart. I was a part of that church and I saw it fall apart. Sadly, in both cases I think what happened with Geisler played a part. The Geisler attack on Licona was a major issue at SES and Geisler I think holds a lot of blame for students abandoning evangelicalism.

    I was also disappointed when I read about Beaumont doing his research for Geisler's systematic theology book. When it came to views on ecclesiology and eschatology, Beaumont had to get quotes that matched Geisler's view from the Church Fathers. Good luck. Beaumont says he just did a word search and picked quotations that sounded like they could support his view and hoped they weren't out of context. It would have been far better just to say the support isn't there.

    I remember distinctly being disappointed by Volume 4 of Geisler's Systematic Theology. I am an Orthodox Preterist. I was when I came to SES and I was when I left. I also did not hide this. When I filled out my application and I was asked views I disagreed with, I listed I was an Orthodox Preterist. I was asked to just not try to evangelize my views. I had no problem with that. When I worked in the library for a time, I was curious when students came in doing research on eschatology and saying they were critiquing Preterism. When I asked what they found about it and they listed objections, I just inwardly thought, "They really are missing it."

    It seems a shock to some contributors in the book to learn that the rapture is a 19th-century doctrine. Wasn't one for me. I had known that for years. It looks like SES too often did not know church history well. I have come to realize an advantage I had going in as having debated these views for years on the internet and having to know them instantly.

    From here, I wish to move on to Joshua Betancourt's view. On p. 60 he talks about how Protestantism views God as a judge instead of a Father. I actually think this is accurate for many, but not all. The context group of scholarship has brought us the truth of honor/shame cultures and how to read the Bible in light of what the culture was. (By the way, shouldn't this have been known according to Catholicism and Orthodoxy if this is the way to interpret the text? It seems like most often it's Protestants making strides in Biblical scholarship.

    With my view, the point is to see that we have dishonored God. It's not the breaking of an abstract rule. It's bringing disgrace on the person of God. I remember being in a Catholic church once and the priest delivering the sermon saying that the idea of a personal relationship with Jesus is something the Protestants have right. I think it's something we have wrong. It highly individualizes Jesus and leaves out honor and shame.

    Betancourt goes on to talk about suffering and says that only in the Catholic church do you find the practical value of suffering. I don't see how that is since our Bibles tell us all to count it all joy in suffering and Romans 5 telling us about suffering and such. Should Protestants say more? Yes. Have we said nothing? No. Clay Jones's book on suffering I think has excellent advice in this area.

    Jeremiah Cowart next on p. 80 has several critiques of Protestantism. Where are the aesthetics and the liturgy? Where is the public confession of sins? Where is the real presence in the Eucharist? Etc. However, some of these could be begging the question in favor of Catholicism. Some of these could be beneficial for some people, but not all. If all ancient churches had liturgy, we have to ask why. Perhaps it was because people were illiterate and this is the best way they could get all of Scripture. For my purposes, I don't find such things to really help me on the path of discipleship and would actually prefer a longer but relevant sermon. Some people are moved by sights of beauty there. That's fine.

    Brandon Dahm's essay I honestly found the most concerning. At one point, he speaks about Lessing's Ditch and how even if arguments could show the resurrection is likely true, that's not enough to ground Christian faith. You need more than probably. Why? We do that everyday. We all drive places most everyday without KNOWING that we will get to our destinations safely, but expecting that we will so much so we tell others when we will arrive. We make appointments for the future not knowing that we will be there, but thinking that we will be there.

    Furthermore, if the arguments are all there for the resurrection and the arguments against it are bad, then this is not a good reason to reject the resurrection. It also doesn't undermine faith. Faith is not so much about that you believe but how you respond to what you believe. It's an acting trust.

    Dahm also says that you can't get the creeds from Scripture so those are probable at best as well. This is something that seems to happen consistently. We cannot be certain of what the Scripture says, so go to authority. Question. How can you be certain you chose the right authority? Maybe the Orthodox have it right. Maybe the Mormons. Maybe the Watchtower.

    As for the authority, what are their reasons? How did they get to that conclusion? Could they possibly be wrong? The exact same questions still apply. If the Magisterium wants to tell me how a text should be interpreted, I want to know why they think that. They could be right, but I want to know why first.

    One of my biggest concerns came on p. 104-105 where Dahm says

    When there was a question of doctrine or morals, I did not weigh the evidence on various sides and look for proof texts, but went to the Catechism first. At that point, I was still not convinced by the arguments for the Catholic side of one practical issue. I made a conscious decision to trust the Church, which was the first time I had done so on an issue with practical consequences that were not all desirable. It was freeing.

    This kind of statement should concern everyone. To demonstrate why, let's restate it and just change a few words.

    When there was a question of doctrine or morals, I did not weigh the evidence on various sides and look for proof texts, but went to the Prophet first. At that point, I was still not convinced by the arguments for the Mormon side of one practical issue. I made a conscious decision to trust the Church, which was the first time I had done so on an issue with practical consequences that were not all desirable. It was freeing.

    Or

    When there was a question of doctrine or morals, I did not weigh the evidence on various sides and look for proof texts, but went to the Watchtower first. At that point, I was still not convinced by the arguments for the Jehovah's Witness side of one practical issue. I made a conscious decision to trust the Organization, which was the first time I had done so on an issue with practical consequences that were not all desirable. It was freeing.

    Excuse me if something like this does not concern me.

    Dahm closes by saying that if you have not looked at his reasons and read what he has, which is good up to this point, or have not had the experiences he has had, then you should be slow to reject Catholicism. The experiences is the difficult part. He refers to praying the Rosary, living the Catholic life, going to the stations of the cross, etc.

    So do you need to take the Hadj in order to be able to reject Islam? Do I need to move to Utah and wear the underwear to reject Mormonism? Naturally, if you start to live out a belief system, you will start to believe that system more and more. Has Dahm done this yet with these other systems? Is he being too quick to reject those?

    And if someone wants to tell me the Mormon Church or an organization like that cannot be the ancient church, well tell that to the Mormon apologists. They say exactly that. Do I think they're right? Of course not. It doesn't change what they say.

    Travis Johnson is next and birth control was a big issue for him. The early church universally condemned it. How can it be a matter of conscience today? Yet from what I've read of the early church, they also opposed sex for any reason other than procreation. If so, do we really want to take that side? Do we want to say that that's how we should live? Good luck finding a married man who will go along with that one!

    Also, when the early church fathers all have a view, I want to know why. What are their reasons? How good are the arguments. They were also premillennial, a position I think is highly lacking. Could it be that maybe sometimes Greek thinkers had a hard time reading a Jewish text?

    In Michael Mason's essay, I find much about the problem of division. Well, there's plenty of division among Catholics. Catholic scholars do not agree on the text. There are even some Catholic New Testament scholars who think that Mary and Joseph did have other children together thus nullifying perpetual virginity. The appeal to authority just doesn't cut it for me.

    In Brian Mathews's article, I am concerned that he had a degree from SES and yet had a hard time answering what the Gospel is. I don't consider this the fault of Mathews so much as the fault of SES. What was being done exactly? I think too many came in who did not know apologetics well and were taught to defend one set of doctrines instead of coming to their own conclusions.

    Mathews also says Aquinas believed in Apostolic Succession. Good for him. Why? What were his reasons? I love Aquinas, but I don't think we have to agree with him or any Christian on everything. The arguments I see for apostolic succession are weak really. They are often based on Scriptures about traditions that do not give the content of those traditions but somehow, we're supposed to know them in the tradition.

    I want to give credit to Andrew Preslar for being the only writer I saw who brought up various scandals in the Catholic Church and what a blight they are on the Church. As I write this review, there is scandal over pedophilia in Ireland and Pennsylvania and people are calling for Francis's resignation, including high-ranking bishops in the Catholic Church. Kudos to Preslar for owning up to this as a real problem.

    Unfortunately, he then goes on to say that communion in the life Of Christ normally includes being in full communion with the Pope. Excuse me if I'm skeptical that having a good walk with Jesus requires being in communion with another man. Jesus is the one who determines the Church and not the Pope.

    The most relevant sections are the appendices in the back. I won't say everything. For instance, on justification, I am looking more at N.T. Wright's view, but this is not a hill I'm ready to die on. Questions of canon are brought up frequently. This has never been a concern of mine. The books we accept have apostolic authority in coming from an apostle or the associate of an apostle, were first century works, and were accepted by the church at large.

    If someone wants to ask me how I know the right ones were picked, I say I just trust that God oversaw it all just like the right words were produced in Scripture. I noticed that J.P. Holding says similar and was quoted, though he saw the quote when I told him and says he doesn't go the way the Catholics go. I urge readers to read his Trusting The New Testament for more. If we are told the Catholics have the right answer, well why? What are their reasons?

    Often it is said that we cannot know the authors of the Gospels apart from tradition. We can know some since there is both internal and external evidence for the Gospels, but there is a difference. Gospel authorship concerns questions of history which is how we determine authorship of all other anonymous ancient works. That is not on the same epistemic level as, say, the doctrine of the Lord's Supper.

    As for Sola Scriptura, I just take it to mean that whatever is true cannot contradict Scripture. It does not mean all traditions are false or are thrown out. We should, however, evaluate the traditions and see how reliable they are. If your historical claim starts in the 2nd or 3rd century and claims to go back to the beginning, excuse me if I'm skeptical.

    Now if someone wants to try to show me that tradition is infallible, feel free to go ahead. Note a passage like 2 Thess. 2:15 doesn't help UNLESS you can show that the traditions you teach are the traditions that they taught. After all, what happens when church fathers disagree or there are competing traditions. Who do I go with?

    Also, in the final section, we are told about the minimal facts approach and told that if we lost all of Scripture, would we still have Christianity? Yes. Those things are found in church tradition. Problem. The minimal facts also is based on data that is early and accepted by critical scholars. Can these traditions be shown to be early and accepted by critical scholars? If anyone is unsure if this is the right understanding of the minimal facts, rest assured it is. I read this in the presence of Mike Licona and Gary Habermas as I was going through the book at the time.

    This book is an honest look however at the question and one can understand why Protestants become Catholic. It does give good food for thought and it is not antagonistic. I think it is something that Protestants should take seriously, but I am just not convinced.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    There are claims made, if accepted, I can see no reason why one would not become Roman Catholic. The question then what was accepted, that leaves no good reason not to become Roman Catholic? [I would not become Roman Catholic, as I currently understand things.]
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    tWebber
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    I didn't review numbers of migrations to more ancient forms of Christianity ... but it has seemed that people of modern times, after becoming Christians in newer church denominations, have become interested in seeking out the roots of Christianity, whether it be Lutheran, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Judaistic forms or even, possibly, with emergent churches.

    I had sort of looked to the roots of Christianity but realized that much just depends on what people are comfortable with. I would probably prefer one with sound teaching on Sundays combined with good fellowship.

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    The issue is knowing. Knowing full and complete true forgiveness. Knowing with certainty one now has eternal life. Knowing for certain one is going to be in Heaven upon death. Actually knowing God. God Himself is the one who decides.

    No Roman Catholic knows any of those things. (OK, some do, but it is not do to church or its false teachings.)
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikewhitney View Post
    I didn't review numbers of migrations to more ancient forms of Christianity ... but it has seemed that people of modern times, after becoming Christians in newer church denominations, have become interested in seeking out the roots of Christianity, whether it be Lutheran, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Judaistic forms or even, possibly, with emergent churches.

    I had sort of looked to the roots of Christianity but realized that much just depends on what people are comfortable with. I would probably prefer one with sound teaching on Sundays combined with good fellowship.
    If my intent was what I was comfortable with, I'd almost certainly still be a Southern Baptist. I studied the early church just to know more about it, had no intention of converting, and as shy as I am I really feel uncomfortable going to strange places where I don't know anyone.

    Today marks 10 years of being Orthodox.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    The issue is knowing. Knowing full and complete true forgiveness. Knowing with certainty one now has eternal life. Knowing for certain one is going to be in Heaven upon death. Actually knowing God. God Himself is the one who decides.
    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    If my intent was what I was comfortable with, I'd almost certainly still be a Southern Baptist. I studied the early church just to know more about it, had no intention of converting, and as shy as I am I really feel uncomfortable going to strange places where I don't know anyone.

    Today marks 10 years of being Orthodox.
    I became a Christian in 1962. The reason was based on the notion that one could know for sure when one died that one would go to Heaven. As to "Baptist" it was through the ministry of an independent fundamentalist baptist church that I was won to Christ. So baptist only best describes "how" I believe. I consider myself a Christian, baptist best describes my sectarian view point.

    Christian professions which do know for certain make no sense to me. The whole basis of the Christian faith stands and falls with the 66 book Bible and in the Christian New Testament. And those who deny the salvation as a gift through faith alone in Christ alone hold to a false gospel in my understanding.

    So, OBP, what did you discover was false in your SB profession and true in now your Orthodox profession? [And why should all professing Christians be of that Orthodox faith? If that is the case.]
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    The whole basis of the Christian faith stands and falls with the 66 book Bible and in the Christian New Testament.
    No, the basis of the Christian faith stands and falls with the Resurrection. If Christ is not raised, our faith is worthess. Some guy named Paul said that.
    And those who deny the salvation as a gift through faith alone in Christ alone hold to a false gospel in my understanding.
    This turns on your understanding of what exactly "faith alone" entails, and I'm not interested in rehashing that with you again.
    So, OBP, what did you discover was false in your SB profession and true in now your Orthodox profession?
    I discovered that the Holy Spirit yanked. I wasn't quite C.S. Lewis-level reluctant, but I really don't like change. As I said, I didn't start out intending to convert. I merely started reading about the early church with an eye toward discerning which church was most like that today.
    [And why should all professing Christians be of that Orthodox faith? If that is the case.]
    I have become convinced that it IS the apostolic church. Christians should dwell together in unity (Ps. 133:1; Eph. 4:3,13; 1 Cor. 12), and what better place than the church the apostles established?
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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    tWebber thewriteranon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post

    I discovered that the Holy Spirit yanked. I wasn't quite C.S. Lewis-level reluctant, but I really don't like change.

    Same.

    "Fire is catching. If we burn, you burn with us!"
    "I'm not going anywhere. I'm going to stay here and cause all kinds of trouble."
    Katniss Everdeen


    Christ our Passover has been sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast.


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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    No, . . .
    ?
    . . . the basis of the Christian faith stands and falls with the Resurrection. If Christ is not raised, our faith is worthess. Some guy named Paul said that.
    Yes. The bodily resurrection of Christ and the Apostle Paul's argument has no inerrant historic foundation apart from the fact it is found in the Christian New Testament.

    I discovered that the Holy Spirit yanked. I wasn't quite C.S. Lewis-level reluctant, but I really don't like change. As I said, I didn't start out intending to convert. I merely started reading about the early church with an eye toward discerning which church was most like that today.
    What was the criteria for making that judgment?

    I have become convinced that it IS the apostolic church.
    What was the apostolic authority by which you were convinced?

    Christians should dwell together in unity (Ps. 133:1; Eph. 4:3,13; 1 Cor. 12), and what better place than the church the apostles established?
    Yes. Absolutly. 1Corimthians 1:10; John 13:34-35; 1John 4:7.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  10. #10
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    ?
    Which came first - Christianity or the 66-book Protestant canon?
    Yes. The bodily resurrection of Christ and the Apostle Paul's argument has no inerrant historic foundation apart from the fact it is found in the Christian New Testament.
    You are determined to shoehorn in sola scriptura by hook or by crook, aren't you? Peter would've been surprised to know that his argument at Pentecost had "no inerrant historic foundation" because it hadn't been written down yet.
    What was the criteria for making that judgment?
    Generally, praxis and belief. When I started out, I really didn't have any criteria in mind other than the promptings of the Holy Spirit.
    What was the apostolic authority by which you were convinced?
    The Holy Spirit.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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