Book Plunge: The Cult of the Saints

[Dante]

Jesus says to Him, all are alive.

It depends again on what being dead and being alive mean.

concerning the resurrection of the dead

[Cerebrum123]

concerning the resurrection of the dead

Then why would the verse apply to the saints who have not yet been resurrected?

[Dante]

Then why would the verse apply to the saints who have not yet been resurrected?

Jesus was addressing the Sadducees who did not believe in the resurrection. The verse shows that there will be a resurrection.

[Cerebrum123]

Jesus was addressing the Sadducees who did not believe in the resurrection. The verse shows that there will be a resurrection.

That doesn't answer my question at all.

[One Bad Pig]

Sure it's such a term, but Mormons swear by it and the capacities the underwear has.

...such as?

We have miracles in all traditions of Christianity and Deuteronom 13 shows us that miracles alone are not enough to substantiate a message.

How many times must I repeat that we must "test the spirits" before you acknowledge that you're burning a strawman here, Nick? I never said that miracles alone are enough to substantiate a message. At most weekday liturgies in my diocese, the antiphonal refrain, "O Son of God, who are wonderful in your saints, save us who sing to you..." is sung. Miracles wrought through the intercession of saints give glory to God. Do you honestly think satan works that way?

[Dante]

That doesn't answer my question at all.

Then I'm afraid I must have misunderstood your question. After all, this verse has nothing to do with the intercession of the saints. I am only addressing the context of this verse because Nick brought it up thinking it means that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were said by Jesus to be alive in Christ prior to the death and resurrection of Christ. Not to mention that the Bosom of Abraham is a part of Hades, or Sheol, not heaven.

[Apologiaphoenix]

concerning the resurrection of the dead

Jesus has YHWH speaking in the present tense. At that moment, He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is the God of the living and not of the dead. They would also connect this then to the covenant and the promise of the Land. These saints would come back to receive the fulfillment of the promise, which would actually go out to the whole world.

[Apologiaphoenix]

...such as?

I was trying to find a story I had read years ago, but I can't because of safe search I have set up on my computer so I can't for now.

How many times must I repeat that we must "test the spirits" before you acknowledge that you're burning a strawman here, Nick? I never said that miracles alone are enough to substantiate a message. At most weekday liturgies in my diocese, the antiphonal refrain, "O Son of God, who are wonderful in your saints, save us who sing to you..." is sung. Miracles wrought through the intercession of saints give glory to God. Do you honestly think satan works that way?

All said was miracles alone are not enough to substantiate truth. Could God truly heal some at tombs of saints and such? Yes. Is it the tomb that matters or the faith that matters? God I think could freely heal people who go there and even if their doctrine isn't perfect, and none of us have that, still give them a gift of grace.

[Dante]

Jesus has YHWH speaking in the present tense. At that moment, He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is the God of the living and not of the dead. They would also connect this then to the covenant and the promise of the Land. These saints would come back to receive the fulfillment of the promise, which would actually go out to the whole world.

I don't think "at that moment" applies to God since God is outside of time.

[One Bad Pig]

I was trying to find a story I had read years ago, but I can't because of safe search I have set up on my computer so I can't for now.

I trust you understand that doesn't help me much.
[quote]
All said was miracles alone are not enough to substantiate truth. [/quot]e
Where did I say they were?

Could God truly heal some at tombs of saints and such? Yes. Is it the tomb that matters or the faith that matters? God I think could freely heal people who go there and even if their doctrine isn't perfect, and none of us have that, still give them a gift of grace.

Primarily faith, but I think sometimes God works miracles to engender faith. I know of a Muslim who believed after miraculous healing (where moments before he had been raging that an icon was blasphemous to Allah). I also know of a pagan teen who was healed of a disfiguring scar overnight (I understand it was her first time in a church), after which she became a Christian. I wish you could go see the streaming icon through which these (and countless other) miracles have been wrought, to inspect it for yourself. My bishop, who was a biologist for 20 years before becoming a priest, could find no scientific reason for its streaming.

[Dante]

Scripture Verse: 2 Kings 13:20-21

20 Then Elisha died, and they buried him. And the raiding bands from Moab invaded the land in the spring of the year. 21 So it was, as they were burying a man, that suddenly they spied a band of raiders; and they put the man in the tomb of Elisha; and when the man was let down and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived and stood on his feet.

© Copyright Original Source

Not so much faith as it is the grace of God that remained in the relics and other physical objects such as icons that matters. I highly doubt that the centurion whose ear got cut off by Peter was healed because of his faith.