Announcement

Collapse

Deeper Waters Forum Guidelines

Notice – The ministries featured in this section of TheologyWeb are guests of this site and in some cases not bargaining for the rough and tumble world of debate forums, though sometimes they are. Additionally, this area is frequented and highlighted for guests who also very often are not acclimated to debate fora. As such, the rules of conduct here will be more strict than in the general forum. This will be something within the discretion of the Moderators and the Ministry Representative, but we simply ask that you conduct yourselves in a manner considerate of the fact that these ministries are our invited guests. You can always feel free to start a related thread in general forum without such extra restrictions. Thank you.

Deeper Waters is founded on the belief that the Christian community has long been in the shallow end of Christianity while there are treasures of the deep waiting to be discovered. Too many in the shallow end are not prepared when they go out beyond those waters and are quickly devoured by sharks. We wish to aid Christians to equip them to navigate the deeper waters of the ocean of truth and come up with treasure in the end.

We also wish to give special aid to those often neglected, that is, the disabled community. This is especially so since our founders are both on the autism spectrum and have a special desire to reach those on that spectrum. While they are a special emphasis, we seek to help others with any disability realize that God can use them and that they are as the Psalmist says, fearfully and wonderfully made.

General TheologyWeb forum rules: here.
See more
See less

The Denominations Myth

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    Page 100, ". . . and didst make them the Catholic Church of the Son of God the Father. . . ."
    What do you think the word "Catholic" means? Or perhaps you never thought it actually meant something to begin with?

    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    Page 123, "CONSECRATION OF THE FLESH AND BLOOD" And, "Now our Lord Jesus Christ willed to distribute his holy flesh and blood unto disciples and believers." Teaching the damnable heresy of transubstantiation. Misinterpreting the words of Christ, which the lost do. Damnable in that it keeps the lost from the gift of salvation by causing them to trust in doing a work in order to be saved. Unfortunately some Christians misinterpret the words of Christ, too. Salvation not being a mater of works in order to obtain or to keep salvation.
    There are three errors in the above statement you made, four to be precise:
    1. You conflate the doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist with the doctrine known as "transubstantiation", and you declare it a "damnable heresy".
    2. You presume yourself a judge of the salvation of others in the place of God, declaring those who do not hold to your doctrines as "the lost".
    3. You declare that salvation is not a matter of works, in stark contrast to what is made clear in the words of Christ Himself.

    Errors 1 & 2

    Transubstantiation refers to a specific understanding of the doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, i.e., the theory that the bread and wine are transformed into the body and blood of Christ at the words of the priest. Meanwhile, the doctrine of the Real Presence has been taught and upheld in the Church from the beginning, and it was the gnostics who denied the Real Presence since they viewed the physical body to be sinful and thus they deny the physical incarnation of Christ as well as the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

    Source: St Ignatius of Antioch, "Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6., circa 80-110 A.D.

    "Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead."

    © Copyright Original Source



    Source: St Justin Martyr, "First Apology", Ch. 66, inter A.D. 148-155.

    "This food we call the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us. For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God's Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus."

    © Copyright Original Source



    Source: St Irenaeus of Lyons, "Against Heresies" a.k.a. "Five Books on the Unmasking and Refutation of the Falsely Named Gnosis", Book V, Ch. 2, 180 A.D

    When Christ visited us in His grace, He did not come to what did not belong to Him: also, by shedding His true blood for us, and exhibiting to us His true flesh in the Eucharist, He conferred upon our flesh the capacity of salvation.
    1. And vain likewise are those who say that God came to those things which did not belong to Him, as if covetous of another's property; in order that He might deliver up that man who had been created by another, to that God who had neither made nor formed anything, but who also was deprived from the beginning of His own proper formation of men. The advent, therefore, of Him whom these men represent as coming to the things of others, was not righteous; nor did He truly redeem us by His own blood, if He did not really become man, restoring to His own handiwork what was said [of it] in the beginning, that man was made after the image and likeness of God; not snatching away by stratagem the property of another, but taking possession of His own in a righteous and gracious manner. As far as concerned the apostasy, indeed, He redeems us righteously from it by His own blood; but as regards us who have been redeemed, [He does this] graciously. For we have given nothing to Him previously, nor does He desire anything from us, as if He stood in need of it; but we do stand in need of fellowship with Him. And for this reason it was that He graciously poured Himself out, that He might gather us into the bosom of the Father.

    2. But vain in every respect are they who despise the entire dispensation of God, and disallow the salvation of the flesh, and treat with contempt its regeneration, maintaining that it is not capable of incorruption. But if this indeed do not attain salvation, then neither did the Lord redeem us with His blood, nor is the cup of the Eucharist the communion of His blood, nor the bread which we break the communion of His body. 1 Corinthians 10:16 For blood can only come from veins and flesh, and whatsoever else makes up the substance of man, such as the Word of God was actually made. By His own blood he redeemed us, as also His apostle declares, "In whom we have redemption through His blood, even the remission of sins." Colossians 1:14 And as we are His members, we are also nourished by means of the creation (and He Himself grants the creation to us, for He causes His sun to rise, and sends rain when He wills Matthew 5:45). He has acknowledged the cup (which is a part of the creation) as His own blood, from which He bedews our blood; and the bread (also a part of the creation) He has established as His own body, from which He gives increase to our bodies.

    3. When, therefore, the mingled cup and the manufactured bread receives the Word of God, and the Eucharist of the blood and the body of Christ is made, from which things the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they affirm that the flesh is incapable of receiving the gift of God, which is life eternal, which [flesh] is nourished from the body and blood of the Lord, and is a member of Him?— even as the blessed Paul declares in his Epistle to the Ephesians, that "we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones." Ephesians 5:30 He does not speak these words of some spiritual and invisible man, for a spirit has not bones nor flesh; Luke 24:39 but [he refers to] that dispensation [by which the Lord became] an actual man, consisting of flesh, and nerves, and bones — that [flesh] which is nourished by the cup which is His blood, and receives increase from the bread which is His body. And just as a cutting from the vine planted in the ground fructifies in its season, or as a grain of wheat falling into the earth and becoming decomposed, rises with manifold increase by the Spirit of God, who contains all things, and then, through the wisdom of God, serves for the use of men, and having received the Word of God, becomes the Eucharist, which is the body and blood of Christ; so also our bodies, being nourished by it, and deposited in the earth, and suffering decomposition there, shall rise at their appointed time, the Word of God granting them resurrection to the glory of God, even the Father, who freely gives to this mortal immortality, and to this corruptible incorruption, 1 Corinthians 15:53 because the strength of God is made perfect in weakness, 2 Corinthians 12:3 in order that we may never become puffed up, as if we had life from ourselves, and exalted against God, our minds becoming ungrateful; but learning by experience that we possess eternal duration from the excelling power of this Being, not from our own nature, we may neither undervalue that glory which surrounds God as He is, nor be ignorant of our own nature, but that we may know what God can effect, and what benefits man receives, and thus never wander from the true comprehension of things as they are, that is, both with regard to God and with regard to man. And might it not be the case, perhaps, as I have already observed, that for this purpose God permitted our resolution into the common dust of mortality, that we, being instructed by every mode, may be accurate in all things for the future, being ignorant neither of God nor of ourselves?

    © Copyright Original Source



    Many more examples I can give of the Church having taught the importance of the doctrine of the Real Presence through the centuries, and why it is denied by the heretics. Who do you think you are to call something which you are ignorant about a "damnable heresy"?

    Error 3

    While it is true that works alone cannot obtain salvation for us, and works without faith are dead works, yet even faith without works is dead, as declared by St James in his Epistle (James 2:17), and he continues, saying that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone (verse 24). What then are the words of our Lord on works and salvation? Many!

    Scripture Verse: Matthew 7:21-27

    21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

    24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

    26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Matthew 22:1-14

    1 And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.” ’ 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.’ 10 So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.

    11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12 So he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

    14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Matthew 25

    1 “Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.

    6 “And at midnight a cry was heard: ‘Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!’ 7 Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’ 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut.

    11 “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ 12 But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’

    13 “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

    14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. 16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.

    20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’

    24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’

    26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.

    29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

    31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

    37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

    41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

    44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

    © Copyright Original Source



    You see then that in so many places, Christ made clear that faith alone cannot save anyone, for you are judged not only by your faith, but by your works.

    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    The reason for them teaching not baptizing until the age of thirty is not in dispute. But was an argument for adult baptism.
    The point was made that the arguments that the Paulicians used for adult-only baptism is not the same as why Baptists only baptize adults, and even that is not actually true since Baptists actually baptize anyone who satisfies their criteria of having professed a good understanding of the faith, so even children as young as 12 are also baptized in certain Baptist parishes.
    Last edited by Dante; 09-16-2018, 01:14 PM.
    The fact that science cannot make any pronouncement about ethical principles has been misinterpreted as indicating that there are no such principles; while in fact the search for truth presupposes ethics. - Karl Popper, 1987

    Comment


    • #47
      On the specific matter of salvation by works, and the assertion that Christ explicitly taught such: Maybe He did, but He also explicitly taught in John 6 that the only "work" we must perform to obtain eternal life is to "believe" in Him.
      Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

      Beige Federalist.

      Nationalist Christian.

      "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

      Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

      Proud member of the this space left blank community.

      Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

      Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

      Justice for Matthew Perna!

      Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
        On the specific matter of salvation by works, and the assertion that Christ explicitly taught such: Maybe He did, but He also explicitly taught in John 6 that the only "work" we must perform to obtain eternal life is to "believe" in Him.
        No, Jesus did not say that believing in the Son whom the Father has sent is the only work we must perform. That completely contradicts what I've shown above, where all the nations will be separated on the day of judgement, and the righteous and unrighteous were explicitly said to have been set aside as such based on the good works they did or not did not do. Matthew 7 is quite explicit in that belief alone cannot save anyone, "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’"
        The fact that science cannot make any pronouncement about ethical principles has been misinterpreted as indicating that there are no such principles; while in fact the search for truth presupposes ethics. - Karl Popper, 1987

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Dante View Post
          No, Jesus did not say that believing in the Son whom the Father has sent is the only work we must perform. That completely contradicts what I've shown above, where all the nations will be separated on the day of judgement, and the righteous and unrighteous were explicitly said to have been set aside as such based on the good works they did or not did not do. Matthew 7 is quite explicit in that belief alone cannot save anyone, "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’"
          I agree that Matt. is explicitly clear. I maintain that John 6 is at least as clear in teaching that the only "work" necessary is to believe in Jesus, or in more Pauline terms, "faith."

          "Believing" (with no added requirements) is a consistent theme throughout John's Gospel, much more so than the Synoptics. (Of course, there is also the "fruit-bearing" thing in John's account of the Last Supper.)

          Let's not pretend Scripture is free of diverse passages standing in "tension" to each other.
          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

          Beige Federalist.

          Nationalist Christian.

          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

          Proud member of the this space left blank community.

          Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

          Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

          Justice for Matthew Perna!

          Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
            I agree that Matt. is explicitly clear. I maintain that John 6 is at least as clear in teaching that the only "work" necessary is to believe in Jesus, or in more Pauline terms, "faith."

            "Believing" (with no added requirements) is a consistent theme throughout John's Gospel, much more so than the Synoptics. (Of course, there is also the "fruit-bearing" thing in John's account of the Last Supper.)

            Let's not pretend Scripture is free of diverse passages standing in "tension" to each other.
            Yet nowhere in John even suggests that the only work necessary is to believe in Jesus. Moreover, what does it mean to believe in Jesus but not do what He has commanded? "Even the demons believe—and tremble!" (James 2:19). Jesus made it very clear when He spoke of the Day of Judgement, that on that day, the nations will be judged by their works, not by their faith alone. Jesus said to the righteous, "for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me." "Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me." And Jesus said to the unrighteous, "for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me." "Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me." Jesus didn't say that these people are cursed because they didn't believe in Jesus; it's because they didn't do the good works that they should have done.
            The fact that science cannot make any pronouncement about ethical principles has been misinterpreted as indicating that there are no such principles; while in fact the search for truth presupposes ethics. - Karl Popper, 1987

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              Page 100, ". . . and didst make them the Catholic Church of the Son of God the Father. . . ."
              Let's look at this in context:
              Source: Key of Truth p. 100

              Blessed art thou, Spirit of the Heavenly Father, forasmuch as thou wast made by the Father, and coming, didst give unto our Lord Jesus Christ authority over all flesh ; and didst make him king and head of beings in heaven and in earth and under the earth; even as St. Paul, filled with thee, declareth. Furthermore, thou didst divide the fiery tongues unto the holy Apostles and unite them unto the one word, and didst make them the Catholic
              Church of the Son of God the Father. And now with all reverence do we entreat thee, that thou come down into these, and fill the hearts of the baptized, who have now been baptized into Christ Jesus. Lest peradventure the unclean spirit approach them that have believed in the only born Son of the heavenly Father. Cleanse their spirits and minds, and make them a temple and dwelling-place of the Father increate, of the Son our intercessor, now and ever and unto eternity of eternities. Amen.

              © Copyright Original Source


              Where in the world do you get the idea that the Roman Catholic Church believes that Jesus has authority because the Holy Spirit gave it to Him, the Father made the Holy Spirit, and only the Father is 'increate'?
              Page 123, "CONSECRATION OF THE FLESH AND BLOOD" And, "Now our Lord Jesus Christ willed to distribute his holy flesh and blood unto disciples and believers."
              Let's see how that passage ends:
              Source: Key of Truth p. 124

              When he said this, did our mediator and intercessor Jesus Christ know that there would come false popes who would change [it] according to their good pleasure? Who with bread 1 alone cajole all men and make that their own flesh and blood, and not Christ's. For this cause also doth our Lord Jesus Christ say : ' This is my body.' Yea more, this doth he imply : that whosoever shall make any water, any mere bread, or any moistened morsel, and distribute (the same) deceitfully to the simple people, it is their own flesh and blood and not Christ's.

              © Copyright Original Source


              They believed that the mainstream church turned the eucharistic elements into their own flesh and blood! This is decidedly NOT Roman Catholic belief.

              You are really good at flat out ignoring contrary evidence, aren't you?
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment

              Related Threads

              Collapse

              Topics Statistics Last Post
              Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-15-2024, 10:19 PM
              14 responses
              74 views
              1 like
              Last Post rogue06
              by rogue06
               
              Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-13-2024, 10:13 PM
              6 responses
              60 views
              0 likes
              Last Post Apologiaphoenix  
              Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-12-2024, 09:36 PM
              1 response
              23 views
              0 likes
              Last Post rogue06
              by rogue06
               
              Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-11-2024, 10:19 PM
              0 responses
              22 views
              2 likes
              Last Post Apologiaphoenix  
              Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-08-2024, 11:59 AM
              3 responses
              44 views
              0 likes
              Last Post whag
              by whag
               
              Working...
              X