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Botham Shem Jean

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  • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
    There's just something about a cop gunning down a person, within the sanctity of that persons home, that even if that person was defending themselves it could be brushed off with 'Yeah well you were mistaken about what home you were in right? You thought it was a robber in *your* home, right?'. That just doesn't seem like justice to me, even if it could be drawn up as accidental.

    If its purely accidental, then its criminally accidental.
    N.O.

    'Pure' or genuine accidents are NEVER criminal.

    But that is irrelevant to her own story - the problem is that shooting was first out of her bag when all she saw was a figure moving. No claim at all of threat other than the union's claim of failure to comply.

    As described in the media, this wouldn't have been justified even in her own apartment. "Moving" isn't "advancing" or "reaching for a weapon" - no threat means probably no justification.

    PROBABLY.

    We simply don't know enough yet.
    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      We appear to be in the final days (hours?) of the actual trial, so whatever evidence there is should be on full display soon.
      Cool.
      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        THAT could be. If that were the case, that would be acceptable police procedure given the circumstances of finding somebody in an apartment you believed to be your own home. That, however, takes us back to - how did she make that error? Was she under the influence of drugs or alcohol?

        (Do we know how long she lived at this apartment?)


        Why are you looking for zebra when the horse is standing there, tugging on your sleeve?

        And was it 13 or 15?
        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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        • Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
          TBH, I'm seeing this more as Criminally Negligent Homicide instead of Manslaughter because it appears from the facts I've seen to have been a tragic though preventable mistake. She was negligent in determining whether she was in the correct apartment, and negligent on determining who was in her apartment, and failed to restrain her impulse to shoot rather quickly...

          In my limited experience (I've served as a juror on two criminal trials, one of which was a manslaughter case) the D.A. often will bring different levels of charges that a jury can select from. And IIRC, in the manslaughter case for example, there were levels of charges we (the jury) could have selected from: Manslaughter, and Criminally negligent homicide. (We actually found him not guilty for reason of self-defense.)
          *emphasis mine

          This is the problematic one. I don't think you can make a case for negligence in simply going in the wrong apartment.
          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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          • I didn't realize how old this thread was...
            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

            My Personal Blog

            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

            Quill Sword

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            • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
              I didn't realize how old this thread was...
              Yeah, it took a while to go to trial. We're there now.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                Yeah, it took a while to go to trial. We're there now.
                As a matter of fact, closing arguments have been made, the case goes to the jury.

                Amber Guyger's murder trial heads to jury after closing statements

                Prosecutors said Monday during closing arguments in the murder trial of ex-Dallas police Officer Amber Guyger that she was "unreasonable" when she mistakenly entered her neighbor's apartment "commando-style" and fatally shot him, thinking he was an intruder.

                "A guilty verdict in this case does not mean you hate police. This has nothing to do with politics," prosecutor Jason Fine told the jurors.

                But the defense argued to jurors that at that moment, Guyger truly believed she was acting in self-defense when she thought she was at her apartment, which is one floor directly below neighbor Botham Jean.

                "It's one of those cases where there are no winners," defense attorney Toby Shook told jurors. "The evidence shows it's just a tragedy. A horrible, horrible tragedy."

                The dueling arguments followed state District Judge Tammy Kemp instructing the jury that they can consider a charge of either murder or manslaughter after Guyger fatally shot Jean on Sept. 6, 2018. Jurors began deliberations Monday afternoon.

                For jurors to find Guyger, 31, guilty of murder, the state must have proved that she "intentionally or knowingly" caused the death of Jean. The lesser charge of manslaughter requires jurors found she "recklessly" caused his death.

                "This has to do with that defendant making unreasonable decisions that put her in that seat," Fine said, pointing toward Guyger, "and Bo in the ground."

                Closing arguments began on day seven of Guyger's trial in a case that reignited conversations about police use of force, racial bias and being safe in one's own home. The defense has argued that Guyger, who is white, feared for her life when she entered the apartment of Jean, who was black, and saw a person she thought was an intruder.

                Shook, in his closing statements, called the case "tragic," and asked, "Who would not have sympathy for Botham Jean?" But he also asked jurors to look at the evidence without emotion.

                The state, he said, "must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant wasn't acting in self-defense. And if they can't do that, it's not guilty."

                Guyger was off duty but in uniform when she fatally shot Botham Jean just before 10 p.m., after she had worked a 13-1/2-hour shift on the Dallas Police Department's crime response team. She told investigators she thought his apartment was hers and he was a burglar. Jean had been watching television alone in his living room and eating a bowl of ice cream when she came in drawing her gun. He was shot in the chest.

                She was fired from the force in the weeks after the shooting.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                • I'm actually surprised that, when asked if she intended to kill Jean, she testified "yes I did".

                  The training is to STOP the subject, not to kill them.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                    *emphasis mine

                    This is the problematic one. I don't think you can make a case for negligence in simply going in the wrong apartment.
                    I hope not. There's a vehicle nearly identical to mine that parks in the same lot as mine. The owner doesn't lock it. I keep opening it because I usually leave for work when it's dark out. The other day I went so far as opening the trunk.
                    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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                    • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                      I hope not. There's a vehicle nearly identical to mine that parks in the same lot as mine. The owner doesn't lock it. I keep opening it because I usually leave for work when it's dark out. The other day I went so far as opening the trunk.
                      The Botham Shem defense: I stood my ground and just accidentally killed my neighbor. Its a tragedy, its terrible, but I'm not a murderer your honour.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                        The Botham Shem defense: I stood my ground and just accidentally killed my neighbor. Its a tragedy, its terrible, but I'm not a murderer your honour.
                        Leon, murder is the purposeful taking of another's life. In US law, it's actually distinguished from various forms of homicide. If she had gone there with the purpose of killing Bo, that would be murder.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          Leon, murder is the purposeful taking of another's life. In US law, it's actually distinguished from various forms of homicide. If she had gone there with the purpose of killing Bo, that would be murder.
                          If she walks scott free that's the real tragedy. A precedence would have been set. The police can litterally shoot their neighbor and get away with it.

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                          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            I'm actually surprised that, when asked if she intended to kill Jean, she testified "yes I did".

                            The training is to STOP the subject, not to kill them.
                            I was surprised at that as well but, meh...it's a little bit of semantics isn't it CP?

                            Yes, you're correct but...that training used to be fire 2 shots and see if they stop...NOW it says, you stop shooting when the subject is down and not moving...which is either dead or dying.
                            "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                            "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

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                            • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                              If she walks scott free that's the real tragedy. A precedence would have been set. The police can litterally shoot their neighbor and get away with it.
                              Murder is not the only possible outcome, Leon.

                              From the article I cited... "The dueling arguments followed state District Judge Tammy Kemp instructing the jury that they can consider a charge of either murder or manslaughter after Guyger fatally shot Jean on Sept. 6, 2018. Jurors began deliberations Monday afternoon".

                              To me, the manslaughter charge is not unreasonable, given what I know of the case so far.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                                If she walks scott free that's the real tragedy. A precedence would have been set. The police can litterally shoot their neighbor and get away with it.
                                Regardless of how the trial is resolved, she isn't getting off scot free. She lost her job and her reputation, and had her face in the international media as a killer in the court of public opinion.
                                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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