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Thread: Botham Shem Jean

  1. #411
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    I feel really disheartened this morning.

    This has gone viral among Christians about a story of forgiveness. But apparently a lot of Black Christians are not thrilled... at all.

    In one of the apologetics groups I'm in, one guy I've seen around Christian circles, a black guy... is downright pissed. He won't even say what he thinks other than that "you just don't get it". Another guy with a fairly wide voice, who is married to a black woman, says that white Christians need to be focusing just as much on systematic racism rather than just forgiveness.

    An old friend of mine from high school who is now a pastor also just posted on Facebook to other pastors that if they want to use this as an example in church of forgiveness... but they haven't preached against current day racism, or didn't use Martin Luther King Day to do so... that preaching about Amber Guyger is going to do more harm than good. A friend chimed in that she had heard from a lot of black Christians and they are not thrilled about this story being used in this way... at all.

    If a lot of black Christians feel this way, I feel that I can't just ignore their feelings, you know? Yet this sort of turning the other cheek is what Christianity is about. But the situation of racism in the US does complicate how to convey that.
    A black pastor friend of mine, who is conservative and is praising this conduct by Brandt, explained to me that "the angry blacks" (his words) see this as 'whitey' thinking that blacks need to be put in their place as subservient and mild mannered, and delegitimizes the anger of blacks toward white domination.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

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  3. #412
    Professor Zymologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    I feel really disheartened this morning.

    This has gone viral among Christians about a story of forgiveness. But apparently a lot of Black Christians are not thrilled... at all.

    In one of the apologetics groups I'm in, one guy I've seen around Christian circles, a black guy... is downright pissed. He won't even say what he thinks other than that "you just don't get it". Another guy with a fairly wide voice, who is married to a black woman, says that white Christians need to be focusing just as much on systematic racism rather than just forgiveness.

    An old friend of mine from high school who is now a pastor also just posted on Facebook to other pastors that if they want to use this as an example in church of forgiveness... but they haven't preached against current day racism, or didn't use Martin Luther King Day to do so... that preaching about Amber Guyger is going to do more harm than good. A friend chimed in that she had heard from a lot of black Christians and they are not thrilled about this story being used in this way... at all.

    If a lot of black Christians feel this way, I feel that I can't just ignore their feelings, you know? Yet this sort of turning the other cheek is what Christianity is about. But the situation of racism in the US does complicate how to convey that.
    There seems to be an increasingly prevalent attitude (both in Christian circles and out) that seems to effectively reject the concept of forgiveness. That's not quite the right way to put it, but I'm having trouble thinking of the right word at the moment. It's a scary phenomenon.
    I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

  4. Amen One Bad Pig, Adrift, Teallaura amen'd this post.
  5. #413
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    For those questioning or challenging Brandt Jean's motivation, listen to his own words on Good Morning America...

    Botham Jean's brother on courtroom hug with Amber Guyger: 'She still deserves love'

    "This is what you have to do to set yourself free," Jean said in an exclusive interview Friday on "Good Morning America." "I didn't really plan on living the rest of my life hating this woman."

    "I know that there's something called peace of mind and that's the type of stuff you need to do to have peace of mind," he said. "That is why I wake up happy in the morning. That is why I want to live happy later on in my life."


    And

    "Each and every one has steps to get towards actually forgiving. I probably went through those faster than other people. Some people went through it faster than me," he said. "If you are trying to forgive [Guyger], understand that she is a human being. She still deserves love."

    "She made a mistake that she probably truly regrets so if you want to forgive her, just understand that God forgave you," Brandt Jean added. "I know that every time I ask God for forgiveness, he forgives me, so who am I to not forgive someone who asks?"
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  6. Amen Adrift, Teallaura amen'd this post.
  7. #414
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    It amazes me that somebody can look at what happened and find anything other than an incredibly healing moment. Guyger is still going to prison, she'll still be a convicted felon no matter what happens, and Brandt Botham isn't allowing this to destroy his faith.
    It amazes me too, but I get it. God's ways are just so alien to this world system, as it often flips the wisdom of the age on its head. I've no doubt that some wanted Guyger to receive a not guilty verdict so that it would feed into their outrage over systemic racism. So they could use the whole issue as an example, and go "See!? See!? We expected nothing less." And instead she receives a guilty verdict, and then forgiveness from the family of the victim!? That's a bitter pill to swallow when expecting juicy outrage to feed on instead. Not to say that people shouldn't be outraged over racism where it can be found within the system, but it seems some would rather live with an open wound than the healing that forgiveness can begin to offer.

  8. Amen Cow Poke, seer amen'd this post.
  9. #415
    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    The dumbest take I saw accused Botham Jean's brother of supporting white supremacy. I don't even know what one can even say to that.

    At the same time, I feel uncomfortable brushing off so many of my black brothers in Christ if they are all saying the same thing.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    It amazes me too, but I get it. God's ways are just so alien to this world system, as it often flips the wisdom of the age on its head. I've no doubt that some wanted Guyger to receive a not guilty verdict so that it would feed into their outrage over systemic racism. So they could use the whole issue as an example, and go "See!? See!? We expected nothing less." And instead she receives a guilty verdict, and then forgiveness from the family of the victim!? That's a bitter pill to swallow when expecting juicy outrage to feed on instead. Not to say that people shouldn't be outraged over racism where it can be found within the system, but it seems some would rather live with an open wound than the healing that forgiveness can begin to offer.
    So, I was watching some of the (can't quite call it rioting) "demonstrations" that night after the trial in Dallas. It was a classic example of...

    A) Outside the courtroom - This is how the world reacts to events
    2) Inside the courtroom - This is how genuine Christianity responds

    What's really interesting is how some of my Christian police buddies are struggling with this. They seem to want very badly to be angry that she was charged with murder, but the "justice system" worked, and love, mercy and forgiveness broke out. My son-in-law, a police lieutenant, says "I'm still processing".
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  11. Amen Adrift amen'd this post.
  12. #417
    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    What's really interesting is how some of my Christian police buddies are struggling with this. They seem to want very badly to be angry that she was charged with murder, but the "justice system" worked, and love, mercy and forgiveness broke out. My son-in-law, a police lieutenant, says "I'm still processing".
    Why would they be upset? Do they simply feel she should have been above the law?
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    The dumbest take I saw accused Botham Jean's brother of supporting white supremacy. I don't even know what one can even say to that.

    At the same time, I feel uncomfortable brushing off so many of my black brothers in Christ if they are all saying the same thing.
    I don't want to brush them off either, but I'm not sure what to do when it seems that the exact opposite is what's happening: that I'm the one that's being brushed off. Again, not quite how I want to put it but I'm having trouble putting thoughts down today for some reason.
    I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

  14. #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    Why would they be upset? Do they simply feel she should have been above the law?
    I think they were mainly upset about the fact that it was "murder", not "manslaughter". Quite honestly, I'm mildly surprised by that, but I understand it.

    And, again, this isn't really an "officer involved shooting" which, pretty much by definition is "on the job", but an off-duty cop doing something downright indefensible.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zymologist View Post
    I don't want to brush them off either, but I'm not sure what to do when it seems that the exact opposite is what's happening: that I'm the one that's being brushed off. Again, not quite how I want to put it but I'm having trouble putting thoughts down today for some reason.
    Like you, I'm having trouble putting together my thoughts on this. But one thing that keeps getting stuck in my mind is the idea that Christianity is about giving up our own rights in favor of the rights of others. So I want to try to understand their point of view in the most charitable manner possible.

    I can understand the point of view that this is possibly a monumental court case. I think most of us can agree that there is at minimum a perception that black people do not get a fair shake when it comes to interactions with the police. And that this conviction can send a message that things are changing. Perhaps the black Christians (I'm really only interested in what Christians think. I don't give a crap what random race baiters think) who are upset may feel that the shift in the news coverage is overshadowing the narrative of things being better for them. And I get the impression that they think that we white people think this means "racism is over, everything's better". Some people seem to think that, but I don't think most do.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

  16. Amen Cow Poke amen'd this post.

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