Botham Shem Jean

[Cow Poke]

I thought that was premeditated murder. If someone gets angry at his body and hits him hard with a club, killing him, that's murder right? I can't see how he gets to plea "Sorry, it was an accident. Meant to just knock some sense into him."

No, that's probably a crime of passion. Manslaughter.

Premeditated murder is where you really really hacked me off, and I show up outside your place of work with a gun, and shoot you when you walk to your car. I planned it out, and had time to change my mind.

[One Bad Pig]

I thought that was premeditated murder. If someone gets angry at his body and hits him hard with a club, killing him, that's murder right? I can't see how he gets to plea "Sorry, it was an accident. Meant to just knock some sense into him."

That would turn on intent, which can be tricky to prove - especially if it's a single blow. A club is less obviously a deadly weapon than something with an edge.

[Sparko]

I still have a feeling there was much more to WHY she wasn't thinking rationally.

drugs?

[Cow Poke]

That would turn on intent, which can be tricky to prove - especially if it's a single blow. A club is less obviously a deadly weapon than something with an edge.

Or a caliber.

[Leonhard]

Correct, but for the record, it's not "shoot to kill" either --- it's "shoot to stop", which, unfortunately, often results in death.

It was described to me as "If you shoot, shoot to kill", by a gun-advocate in the US. The weapon are lethal, and while the bullets aren't hollow tip, they're meant to break tissue, sever bones, and send deadly shockwaves through the tissue. They destroy. Treating them as non-lethal isn't realistic to me, but I get this is the police's approach to it, as we don't have sufficiently effective stopping forces that don't kill.

[Leonhard]

If you catch a larger, stronger person in the act of stealing something, and you're between that person and the only way out, I can well understand being afraid for your life.

One word: Retreat. If someone robs your house, the best course of action is to let him finish. Nothing else makes sense to me.

[Cow Poke]

It was described as "If you shoot, shoot to kill", by a gun-advocate in the US.

That's generally the advice given to civilians. Police are regulated in the use of deadly force.

The weapon are lethal, and while the bullets aren't hollow tip, they're meant to break tissue, sever bones, and send deadly shockwaves through the tissue. They destroy. Treating them as non-lethal isn't realistic to me, but I get this is the police's approach to it, as we don't have sufficiently effective stopping forces that don't kill.

This is why police in most jurisdictions carry tasers -- and in many cases (where you can reasonably expect opposition) non-lethal rubber shotgun rounds.

[One Bad Pig]

No, that's probably a crime of passion. Manslaughter.

Premeditated murder is where you really really hacked me off, and I show up outside your place of work with a gun, and shoot you when you walk to your car. I planned it out, and had time to change my mind.

Right, but there can be unpremeditated murder. If you look at me the wrong way, and I shoot you, it's not premeditated, but done with malice.

With a club, it's a little trickier. If you torque me off and I pound on you until you're a bloody pulp, that's probably murder. If I hit you once, I might have only intended to knock some sense into you.

[rogue06]

One word: Retreat. If someone robs your house, the best course of action is to let him finish. Nothing else makes sense to me.

Police officers are not supposed to flee from a crime being committed.

[Cow Poke]

One word: Retreat. If someone robs your house, the best course of action is to let him finish. Nothing else makes sense to me.

There's a difference between a person breaking into an occupied residence (which in most jurisdiction adds the word "aggravated" to the crime) and a person coming home to find somebody already in their home... and even more difference where a police officer unlawfully enters a residence....

[One Bad Pig]

One word: Retreat. If someone robs your house, the best course of action is to let him finish. Nothing else makes sense to me.

In the heat of the moment, if you think the person might panic at being caught and try to attack you to get out, I can see an impulse to use deadly force to defend yourself - even if the logical thing would be to leave.

[Cow Poke]

Right, but there can be unpremeditated murder. If you look at me the wrong way, and I shoot you, it's not premeditated, but done with malice.

Yes, in different jurisdictions, there are those qualifiers.

With a club, it's a little trickier. If you torque me off and I pound on you until you're a bloody pulp, that's probably murder. If I hit you once, I might have only intended to knock some sense into you.

Agreed.

[Sparko]

One word: Retreat. If someone robs your house, the best course of action is to let him finish. Nothing else makes sense to me.

The way my brother (a cop) told me is that if you see someone in your house and they are on their way out, even with your property, you can't shoot them. If you see them breaking into your car (and you are not in it) you can't shoot them. You can however shoot someone who breaks INTO your house because at that point you don't know if they mean you harm or not and the safest bet is to assume they mean to harm you. You basically can only shoot someone if you can articulate why you felt your life was in danger. And if you do shoot someone, you don't try to wound them, because it is hard enough to even hit someone when adrenaline is rushing through your body. So you aim at the center of mass, their chest, and hope you hit them. Once they are down, you cannot "finish them off" - once they are no longer a danger you must not shoot. If they continue to attack you, you can.

[Leonhard]

No, that's probably a crime of passion. Manslaughter.

Premeditated murder is where you really really hacked me off, and I show up outside your place of work with a gun, and shoot you when you walk to your car. I planned it out, and had time to change my mind.

Hmmm, I'm considering I might just be linguistically confused about a subtle distinction between how you catagorise murder and how we do it in Denmark. We have just have the term 'Drab' or 'Mord', which I guess can be translated murder, and we use it for all wrongful killings. For a legal killing we have another longer term "Slog ham ihjel", lit. "Hit him to death", that's the generic term for killing someone in Denmark.

We have specific terms for what of 'drab' it is, but we all consider it 'drab'.

I'm reading manslaughter here as like... let me think of an analogy...

"A crane operator is sleep deprived, and due to inattention he lowers a fourty ton weight down not being aware of a coworker there, who is crushed by the lowered weight."

We would call that "Uagtsom man drab" (Inattentional man killing) Is the term manslaughter you guys are using, being used in this sense to describe what Guyger committed against Botham Shem?

[Cow Poke]

The way my brother (a cop) told me is that if you see someone in your house and they are on their way out, even with your property, you can't shoot them. If you see them breaking into your car (and you are not in it) you can't shoot them. You can however shoot someone who breaks INTO your house because at that point you don't know if they mean you harm or not and the safest bet is to assume they mean to harm you. You basically can only shoot someone if you can articulate why you felt your life was in danger. And if you do shoot someone, you don't try to wound them, because it is hard enough to even hit someone when adrenaline is rushing through your body. So you aim at the center of mass, their chest, and hope you hit them. Once they are down, you cannot "finish them off" - once they are no longer a danger you must not shoot. If they continue to attack you, you can.

And this is why it is often said "be sure to shoot to kill", because that way it's only your testimony that makes it to court. It's one of those "legal" things, though it's not necessarily a moral thing.

There have even been 'bad advice" suggestions that "if you kill him outside, drag the body inside so you can say...."