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Trump denies 3000 died in Puerto Rico as a result of the hurricane ...

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  • Trump denies 3000 died in Puerto Rico as a result of the hurricane ...

    Not only does he give himself an A+, he denies the majority of the people that died as a result of that hurricane actually died as a result of that hurricane. It's all made up.

    Source: Trump tweet ...


    3000 people did not die in the two hurricanes that hit Puerto Rico. When I left the Island, AFTER the storm had hit, they had anywhere from 6 to 18 deaths. As time went by it did not go up by much. Then, a long time later, they started to report really large numbers, like 3000...

    © Copyright Original Source



    What were we saying about Trump and conspiracy theories and lying?

    Jim
    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

  • #2
    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Not only does he give himself an A+, he denies the majority of the people that died as a result of that hurricane actually died as a result of that hurricane. It's all made up.

    Source: Trump tweet ...


    3000 people did not die in the two hurricanes that hit Puerto Rico. When I left the Island, AFTER the storm had hit, they had anywhere from 6 to 18 deaths. As time went by it did not go up by much. Then, a long time later, they started to report really large numbers, like 3000...

    © Copyright Original Source



    What were we saying about Trump and conspiracy theories and lying?

    Jim
    How do they know that 3,000 died? Did they count bodies?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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    • #3
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      How do they know that 3,000 died? Did they count bodies?
      Yes 'they' did*. And I'm rounding, the number varies depend on who's counting from close to 3000 to over 4500. The latest numbers I'm seeing being used are the ones close 3000.

      Jim

      *I'm sure how they counted them and who did the counting will figure into this discussion relatively soon ...
      Last edited by oxmixmudd; 09-13-2018, 12:29 PM.
      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
        Not only does he give himself an A+, he denies the majority of the people that died as a result of that hurricane actually died as a result of that hurricane. It's all made up.

        Source: Trump tweet ...


        3000 people did not die in the two hurricanes that hit Puerto Rico. When I left the Island, AFTER the storm had hit, they had anywhere from 6 to 18 deaths. As time went by it did not go up by much. Then, a long time later, they started to report really large numbers, like 3000...

        © Copyright Original Source



        What were we saying about Trump and conspiracy theories and lying?

        Jim
        Source: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/puerto-rico-hurricane-death-3000-1.4801826

        The new estimate of nearly 3,000 dead in the six months after Maria devastated the island in September 2017 and knocked out the entire electrical grid was made by researchers with the Milken Institute School of Public Health at George Washington University.

        The new figure is almost twice the U.S. government's previous estimate, included in a recent report to Congress, that said there were 1,427 more deaths in the three months after the storm than the average for the same period over the previous four years.

        © Copyright Original Source



        The "estimates" are fabricated and can not in any way be positively attributed to the hurricane.
        That's what
        - She

        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
        - Stephen R. Donaldson

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
          Source: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/puerto-rico-hurricane-death-3000-1.4801826

          The new estimate of nearly 3,000 dead in the six months after Maria devastated the island in September 2017 and knocked out the entire electrical grid was made by researchers with the Milken Institute School of Public Health at George Washington University.

          The new figure is almost twice the U.S. government's previous estimate, included in a recent report to Congress, that said there were 1,427 more deaths in the three months after the storm than the average for the same period over the previous four years.

          © Copyright Original Source



          The "estimates" are fabricated and can not in any way be positively attributed to the hurricane.
          It's also hard to fault Trump for Puerto Rico's extreme state of infrastructural disrepair prior to the storm and local government stockpiling instead of distributing supplies received.
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

            The "estimates" are fabricated and can not in any way be positively attributed to the hurricane.
            Do you have any evidence that they are fabricated?

            It would seem to me that if the people wouldn't have died without the hurricane, then the hurricane is the ultimate, not proximate, cause.
            "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
            Hear my cry, hear my shout,
            Save me, save me"

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              How do they know that 3,000 died? Did they count bodies?
              IIRC even CNN, shortly after they released the +2900 number, noted just how difficult it is to verify any of the numbers. Still, I think it is safe to say that a whole bunch of people died in the wake of the storm, and a local government that hoarded water, food and the equipment and supplies needed to restore power could only have exacerbated the situation.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                How do they know that 3,000 died? Did they count bodies?
                No. It's an "estimate".

                Source: Fact Check: Trump is Right About Puerto Rico, Critics Manipulating Hurricane Maria Death ‘Estimates’

                [President Trump's] opponents — including the media — have strained for more than a year to turn Hurricane Maria into his version of Hurricane Katrina, the devastating 2005 storm that prompted criticism of President George W. Bush’s response — even though state and local authorities had been far worse — and foreshadowed a Democratic takeover of Congress in 2006.

                Leading the charge was CNN, which made a special effort to link Hurricane Maria in 2017 to Hurricane Katrina in 2005, and made a temporary media sensation of San Juan Mayor Carmen Yulín Cruz, who accused the Trump administration of neglect.

                However, the media’s effort at the time was frustrated by several factors. First, experts praised the federal government’s response to Hurricane Maria, which posed special challenges because Puerto Rico is so far from the mainland U.S.

                Second, Puerto Rico Governor Ricardo Rosselló himself praised the federal government’s response: “The president and the administration, every time we’ve asked them to execute, they’ve executed quickly,” he told Fox News in September 2017.

                Third, Puerto Rico was already something of a disaster before the hurricane hit, thanks to mismanagement by the territory’s government that led to a debt crisis in recent years. (Mayor Cruz herself is reportedly under FBI investigation for corruption.)

                However, Trump’s critics did not give up. Over the past several months, they have attempted to cite several new studies that created new estimates of the “real” death toll of Hurricane Maria — based on statistical models, not on actual death counts.

                Many studies addressed a real concern that the Puerto Rican government lacked the competence to do an accurate death count, but much of the media hype around the results was clearly motivated by the attempt to damage the Trump administration.

                [...]

                Even the [Washington Post] was skeptical of the absurdly high estimate: “This is not a verified number, unlike body counts in wars. The Harvard study offers only an estimate – a midpoint along a broad range of possibilities. It is not based on death records, only estimates of deaths from people who were interviewed in a survey.

                [...]

                The media reported the new estimate as if it were an actual confirmed death toll — with CNN taking care to note that the new number was released near the anniversary of Katrina. The Puerto Rican governor, under heavy political pressure due to the slow pace of the island’s recovery, officially revised the death toll to match the estimate.

                That gave the media an excuse to throw out science and statistics, and to report the 2.975 number as an established fact — even though it was just an estimate based on a statistical model, and three times higher than all but one of the previous estimates.

                The AP reported earlier this week that “3,000 people died in Puerto Rico” in Hurricane Maria — as if it were a proven fact. It did not indicate that the number was simply one estimate among many, and that its evidence was a controversial statistical model.


                https://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...rricane-maria/

                © Copyright Original Source

                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  IIRC even CNN, shortly after they released the +2900 number, noted just how difficult it is to verify any of the numbers. Still, I think it is safe to say that a whole bunch of people died in the wake of the storm, and a local government that hoarded water, food and the equipment and supplies needed to restore power could only have exacerbated the situation.
                  Around 1-million bottles of water were literally left to rot on a runway because the corrupt local government refused to distribute them.

                  bottled-water-PR.jpg

                  https://nypost.com/2018/09/12/massiv...r-after-maria/

                  But this is still somehow Trump's fault.
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Show us the death certificates. Any deaths in the USA or a US Territory has to have a death certificate issued. Surely they can count those up? And each one should have a social security number to go with it.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by guacamole View Post
                      Do you have any evidence that they are fabricated?

                      It would seem to me that if the people wouldn't have died without the hurricane, then the hurricane is the ultimate, not proximate, cause.
                      How do we know they wouldn't have died without the hurricane? Without individually counting each and every death certificate and categorizing the cause of death, which they didn't do, they have no idea if it can be attributed to the hurricane. They are counting the increase in number of deaths from diabetic reasons in the totals! That's ridiculous!
                      That's what
                      - She

                      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                      - Stephen R. Donaldson

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        Show us the death certificates. Any deaths in the USA or a US Territory has to have a death certificate issued. Surely they can count those up? And each one should have a social security number to go with it.
                        Due to a court order the death certificates have now been released. So it is possible for investigators to determine who died on PR and on what date.

                        That, in and of itself, doesn't tell you who died "because of the hurricane" as compared to who was about to die anyway and just happened to die over that time period. About 2,400 people die on average per month in PR. So to work out how many died "because of the hurricane" you've got to either take the total number of people who died in the 6 months following the hurricane and subtract 6x2400, or do fancier statistical analysis to determine more accurate numbers.

                        The PR governor requested an official study from an external university to crunch the numbers and they delivered their official finding a few weeks ago: 2,975 (95% CI: 2,658-3,290) more people died in this time period than would usually have died.

                        As opposed to an influential investigation from Harvard researchers earlier in the summer, which estimated more than 4,000 deaths but had a wide confidence interval, this study used official death certificates from Puerto Rico’s health department. And as opposed to a study of administrative data posted earlier this month, which reported 1,139 deaths from September to December, this effort also modeled the staggering amount of migration triggered by Maria—almost a tenth of the population of Puerto Rico left in the aftermath of the storm
                        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          It's also hard to fault Trump for Puerto Rico's extreme state of infrastructural disrepair prior to the storm and local government stockpiling instead of distributing supplies received.
                          Ok - so the gist of what I'm getting so far from the Trump loyalists is that it is either all Puerto Rico's fault or that It's all made up.

                          Any other reasons This has nothing to do with Donald Trump ... even though he gives himself an "A+" rating on his response to the Hurricane disaster in Puerto Rico?


                          Jim
                          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Dimbulb View Post
                            The PR governor requested an official study from an external university to crunch the numbers and they delivered their official finding a few weeks ago: 2,975 (95% CI: 2,658-3,290) more people died in this time period than would usually have died.
                            Source: Did 4,645 people die in Hurricane Maria? Nope.

                            But there’s a problem: This is not a verified number, unlike body counts in wars. The Harvard study offers only an estimate – a midpoint along a broad range of possibilities. It is not based on death records, only estimates of deaths from people who were interviewed in a survey.

                            In effect, the researchers took one number – 15 deaths identified from a survey of 3,299 households – and extrapolated that to come up with 4,645 deaths across the island. That number came with a very large caveat, clearly identified in the report, but few news media accounts bothered to explain the nuances.

                            https://www.washingtonpost.com/ampht...?noredirect=on

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            Edit: Ah, I see that your link is reporting on a different study. However:

                            The total, which was estimated using a full government-supplied data set and a complex model, will likely be cited as the most reliable account of the death toll. It is presented in a similar way to previous estimates. As in other studies, the GW researchers essentially modeled what the death rate in Puerto Rico would’ve looked like if Maria hadn’t hit, and then used that number from September to the following February as a baseline. The estimate of real-life deaths above that baseline are the “excess deaths” estimated throughout that period.


                            So we're still talking about "estimates" and "computer models" rather than an actual, verifiable tally of people who died as a direct result of the hurricane.
                            Last edited by Mountain Man; 09-13-2018, 02:24 PM.
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                              even though he gives himself an "A+" rating on his response to the Hurricane disaster in Puerto Rico?
                              He actually gave himself an A+ rating for Texas and Florida, and said he did better than that for PR (dunno what is better than an A+ though...), and that it was "an incredible, unsung, success" and "one of the best jobs that has ever been done for this sort of thing".
                              Last edited by Starlight; 09-13-2018, 02:26 PM.
                              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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