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  • #31
    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
    I don't know exactly what you mean with "take the Creator out of the picture". God is there whether people realise He's there or not. He's created them with an orderliness, which I consider obvious. All people can find these things out.
    Find what things out? They would not see that God created orderliness, it is just a by product of blind natural forces, to them. They therefore will reject the very thing that they were created for, the very thing that brings the kind of happiness we were created for.

    You don't have to believe in God, in order to know what makes you happy and fulfilled, or even to figure out from experience what is right or wrong seer.
    That makes no sense, tell that to the Maoist or to the man who finds happiness in molesting children.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      Why it is worldly to have more satisfaction and do better in school or have less substance abuse base on your faith in God?
      You're misquoting me then. Whether you have substance abuse or not, whether you do better in school or not, are world matters. That Christians might, for some reasons, do slightly better in those area doesn't tell me anything about whether Christianity is true or not.

      In fact all it makes me feel is a suspicion of sorts that I can't really lay to rest.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        Find what things out?
        Telos; Natural happiness.

        They would not see that God created orderliness, it is just a by product of blind natural forces, to them. They therefore will reject the very thing that they were created for, the very thing that brings the kind of happiness we were created for.
        Supernatural happiness is beyond our natural telos. And yet all you've done is talk about natural happiness. That's the article you were talking about.

        That makes no sense, tell that to the Maoist or to the man who finds happiness in molesting children.
        Uh... huh? You've lost me.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
          You're misquoting me then. Whether you have substance abuse or not, whether you do better in school or not, are world matters. That Christians might, for some reasons, do slightly better in those area doesn't tell me anything about whether Christianity is true or not.

          In fact all it makes me feel is a suspicion of sorts that I can't really lay to rest.
          This is the point, when we do good (all those things are good) we are getting closer to the way God wants us to act, and be, the way God purposed us to act and be. That in turn brings greater satisfaction and happiness as we conform, more and more, to our God given conscience. With atheism there is no goal, moral or otherwise. What makes a man happy, or not, is based solely on personal preference. And since nature did not create the man for a goal that personal preference is king, and that varies from person to person.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
            Telos; Natural happiness.
            I still don't understand what you mean. What does teleology have to do with nature?
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              This is the point, when we do good (all those things are good) we are getting closer to the way God wants us to act, and be, the way God purposed us to act and be.
              Again, if you spend a life pursuing worldly happiness, getting a wife, kids, filling your time with activity at the job, and doing all those things, then you'd ironically be slothful. You might be having the time of your life, but I'm just saying that as a Christian you've been given a higher purpose than not doing drugs, or scoring well in school.

              That in turn brings greater satisfaction and happiness as we conform, more and more, to our God given conscience.
              We agree that its the mark of a Christian to feel joy at conforming themselves to God's will.

              With atheism there is no goal, moral or otherwise.
              Not in the worldview no. Though atheists are still humans, and so, still have telos, which they can know through natural reason. I'd use that to point out flaws in their worldview mind you, but they'd still be doing it.

              What makes a man happy, or not, is based solely on personal preference. And since nature did not create the man for a goal that personal preference is king, and that varies from person to person.
              I disagree on this. We are more similar than we are different. There's hardly any difference between you and carpedm9587, in terms of what makes you feel happy and fulfilled lives.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                I still don't understand what you mean. What does teleology have to do with nature?
                Teology is basically just the study of what a thing is ordered towards. A match is ordered towards producing a flame. A rock is ordered towards resting on the ground. Its basically what state something points towards. Natural teology is the teleogy of things in the world, and they point to within that world. The totality of what moral life a healthy human is ordered towards, is what Aristotle would call Happiness. This isn't the same notion of happiness as we use today though (life satisfaction), but means a human that is fulfilled in being a rational human being. Virtuous and in control of themself and their passions.

                A thing, or a person, can also have a supernatural telos, but other than humans, and say the Ark of the Covenant, its hard to say what those are for the rest of nature. St. Thomas Aquinas speculated that on the New Earth, after the resurrection, there would be no plants or animals as their supernatural telos - basically sustenance for humans - had been fulfilled. The stars would and the sun would be motionless in the sky, as there would be no need to measure days anymore. Etc...

                Humans do have a supernatural telos. A pointing out to something beyond this world, to our ultimate destiny of being in Heaven with God. But that's beyond this world. Nobody can know about this unless its revealed to them.

                Natural teology is accessible to anyone. Requires no special revelation, and there's far more agreement on it than disagreement. Even today.
                Last edited by Leonhard; 09-19-2018, 01:58 PM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                  Teleology is basically just the study of what a thing is ordered towards. A match is ordered towards producing a flame. A rock is ordered towards resting on the ground. Its basically what state something points towards. Natural teology is the teleogy of things in the world, and they point to within that world. The totality of what moral life a healthy human is ordered towards, is what Aristotle would call Happiness. This isn't the same notion of happiness as we use today though (life satisfaction), but means a human that is fulfilled in being a rational human being. Virtuous and in control of themself and their passions.
                  But nature has no teleology for human beings, not virtue, not self control, not anything. Such teleology does not and can not exist with out God, a particular kind of God at that. Remember Leonhard, before you were a Christian we had a long discussion about this.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                    I disagree on this. We are more similar than we are different. There's hardly any difference between you and carpedm9587, in terms of what makes you feel happy and fulfilled lives.
                    No, I'm not like Carp, picking my nose doesn't make me happy!
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      But nature has no teleology for human beings, not virtue, not self control, not anything.
                      You're very confused here seer. We are natural entities. We have a telos. The telos we have is not something existing out there on a piece of paper, or in the ethereal realm, its something about us.

                      Such teleology does not and can not exist with out God, a particular kind of God at that.
                      True, but that does mean that telos ceases to exist for atheists. They still have it, can still find it, and most of them do know of a great deal of it, even if it doesn't fit will with their worldview. Just like a reductionist materialist can still have thoughts about something, even though intentionality isn't something that's possible given their worldview.

                      Remember Leonhard, before you were a Christian we had a long discussion about this.
                      Yes and I still approach ethics much the same way I did back then. I just came to a fuller understanding of the implications.

                      I don't know why you'd think that my ethical worldview would be completely overhauled by me becoming a Christian? I really think it'd do you a world of good to look into Aristotelianism. Look up Ed Feser's books, they're a very good introduction.

                      I'll let this post be it for tonight, and probably for the rest of the discussion. I think I've said all I need to say here, we're just heading off into a discussion about ethics is.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                        You're very confused here seer. We are natural entities. We have a telos. The telos we have is not something existing out there on a piece of paper, or in the ethereal realm, its something about us.
                        I understand that Leonhard.

                        True, but that does mean that telos ceases to exist for atheists. They still have it, can still find it, and most of them do know of a great deal of it, even if it doesn't fit will with their worldview. Just like a reductionist materialist can still have thoughts about something, even though intentionality isn't something that's possible given their worldview.
                        What do they find? All those things in the OP you called "worldly" - if it is a God given telos what are they finding?

                        Yes and I still approach ethics much the same way I did back then. I just came to a fuller understanding of the implications.

                        I really think it'd do you a world of good to look into Aristotelianism. Look up Ed Feser's books, they're a very good introduction.
                        I did, I actually purchased His book on your recommendation. So I'm not totally clueless.

                        I'll let this post be it for tonight, and probably for the rest of the discussion. I think I've said all I need to say here, we're just heading off into a discussion about ethics is.
                        OK
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          Do you ALWAYS have to be so cotton-picken LOGICAL!?!?!?!
                          So I had unsubscribed from what seemed like another trolling thread from Seer - and this post showed up on my "settings" page, causing me to come back and see what on earth you were referring to. Seer is many things, but logical has never struck me as one of them. I was fascinated to see Leon's responses...
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            So I had unsubscribed from what seemed like another trolling thread from Seer - and this post showed up on my "settings" page, causing me to come back and see what on earth you were referring to. Seer is many things, but logical has never struck me as one of them. I was fascinated to see Leon's responses...
                            I just like Leon - he's good people.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                              Yes.

                              There is nothing that prevents people who aren't Christians from understanding the natural human telos, and living a naturally happy life. Its not a bad thing. Its good to be happy. We're meant to be happy creatures.

                              But if it distracting you from Christ, then you're losing out on something even greater. In that case I'd rather trade natural happiness for supernatural glory.
                              As I understand it, teleos (is that the right word?) is a principle that springs from the concept of "design" or "purpose" or "intent." I think the term can be separated from creator/gods and refer to "suitability of form." In other words, if I understand the structure and form of a piece of wood, I will know that using it as a lever to lift a 2 ton block is not suitable to its form (i.e., it's too slender) and likely to result in a bent/broken piece of wood. By this sense, a human person (like any other "object") has a teleos. So, living in recognition of that is likely to result in more happiness.

                              But Seer is speaking about a "god-given purpose" for a god he cannot even show actually exists. So, ultimately, Seer is trying to impose his definition of our "purpose" on those around him, and label anyone who does not conform as "blind" or "deluded."

                              It's not really a position with which a rational discussion can be had.
                              Last edited by carpedm9587; 09-19-2018, 04:28 PM.
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                As I understand it, teleos (is that the right word?) is a principal...
                                You mean like Mr. Ackerman from High School? I think his first name was Vernon.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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