Originally posted by carpedm9587
View Post
Announcement
Collapse
Civics 101 Guidelines
Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!
Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less
Kids Raised With Religion Do Much Better
Collapse
X
-
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
-
Originally posted by seer View PostWell of course it is my way according to my worldview, and according to your beliefs it must be something else.
This appears to be another troll thread. So I'll leave the last word to you. I'm unsubscribing.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
-
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI've not said anything about "must." You asserted "it's because of X." You have not made that case - merely asserted it.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
Comment
-
Originally posted by seer View PostWell of course it is my way according to my worldview, and according to your beliefs it must be something else.
Conversely, showing that there's a correlation between religious upbringing and faith, doesn't show that atheism or humanism is wrong, nor that a humanist somehow needs to believe its false.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Leonhard View PostActually it doesn't have to be something else according to his worldview. If tomorrow it was shown that atheists on the whole were more intelligent, had an on average higher earning income, reported happier lives, lived longer and/or had better and more frequent sex. Then that wouldn't show that Christianity is false.
Conversely, showing that there's a correlation between religious upbringing and faith, doesn't show that atheism or humanism is wrong, nor that a humanist somehow needs to believe its false.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Leonhard View PostActually it doesn't have to be something else according to his worldview. If tomorrow it was shown that atheists on the whole were more intelligent, had an on average higher earning income, reported happier lives, lived longer and/or had better and more frequent sex. Then that wouldn't show that Christianity is false.
Conversely, showing that there's a correlation between religious upbringing and faith, doesn't show that atheism or humanism is wrong, nor that a humanist somehow needs to believe its false.
“Thou hast made us for thyself, O Lord, and our heart is restless until it finds its rest in thee.”Last edited by seer; 09-19-2018, 10:19 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
Comment
-
Originally posted by seer View PostLeonhard do you believe that there is a teleology for the human person?
And that the closer we align to that purpose the more satisfied, happier and fulfilled we will become?
But if it distracting you from Christ, then you're losing out on something even greater. In that case I'd rather trade natural happiness for supernatural glory.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Leonhard View PostThere is nothing that prevents people who aren't Christians from understanding the natural human telos, and living a naturally happy life. Its not a bad thing. Its good to be happy. We're meant to be happy creatures.
But if it distracting you from Christ, then you're losing out on something even greater. In that case I'd rather trade natural happiness for supernatural glory.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
Comment
-
Originally posted by seer View PostI'm not saying that unbelievers can't live a relatively happy life. But there is no "natural" teleology for humans in that case.
But if there is a design for humanity, and individuals by extension, then the closer we get to that purpose the more content and happier we will become.
I don't like the word "designed", it compares humans to artifacts. Something which it seems you're doing in the rest of that text. The comparison fails in some ways, and it breaks the analogy. We're not here in the world to tick in a rather smooth way. God didn't create engines, or clockworks, He created creatures.
God created Adam and Eve, to live in this blissful natural human happiness that the Garden of Eden represents. But after the fall, He's offered something much greater, by inviting humans to join Him in Heaven, to behold Him for eternity.
Natural happiness is accessible to all us, though its likely only a pale shadow of Adam and Eve's perfect matrimonial bliss. Atheists, Christians, Moslems, Buddhist, Satanists and even all other worldviews get married, pursue hobbies, travel, etc... But it its the joy of Christ, that I think really defines Christian spirituality. A joy that makes you want to forsake worldly things, and even risk your health and short term gain and happiness in this life.
You're right that there's probably something missing in atheists lives when it comes to God, and sometimes I wonder why deism isn't as common as atheism. Yet still, I wouldn't use natural happiness as an example. In some countries Christians are positively miserable when it comes to natural happines.
Its the supernatural joy of Christ that keeps them going. And that's something quite different. I wouldn't even put that in the same category. That's something that reaches beyond this world, beyond our broken bodies, its just more. Higher. A happiness I think Adam and Eve would have longed for if they knew of it, and would have given up the Garden of Eden to pursue, if they hadn't fallen to temptation.Last edited by Leonhard; 09-19-2018, 12:42 PM.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Leonhard View PostAre you asking about what their view implies, or what is actually the case? We humans have telos. That would be objectively true, regardless of whether a persons worldview implied it or not. A persons worldview doesn't change what's good for them, just what they believe about it. And they can still with the power of natural reasoning find out these things for themselves, and live accordingly to them, to the degree that they chose to do so.
I agree with this. Especially for the natural happiness. But I hesitate a bit when it comes to the supernatural glory that Christ is inviting people into. That might require a lot of sacrifice, drudgery, giving loved things up. Don't forget that Christ told people to pluck out their eyes, and cut off their hand, and while He didn't mean that literally, its always been taken that Christians should be willing to sacrifice what is most dearest and closest to them for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven.
I don't like the word "designed", it compares humans to artifacts. Something which it seems you're doing in the rest of that text. The comparison fails in some ways, and it breaks the analogy. We're not here in the world to tick in a rather smooth way. God created Adam and Eve, to live in this blissful natural human happiness that the Garden of Eden represents. But after the fall, he's offered something much greater, by inviting humans to join Him in Heaven and behold Him for eternity.
God didn't create engines, or clockworks, He created creatures.
Natural happiness is accessible to all us, though its likely only a pale shadow of their perfect matrimonial bliss. Atheists, Christians, Moslems, Buddhist, Satanists and even all other worldviews get married, pursue hobbies, travel, etc... But it its the joy of Christ, that I think really defines Christian spirituality. A joy that makes you want to forsake worldly things, and even risk your health and short term gain and happiness in this life.
You're right that there's probably something missing in atheists lives when it comes to God, and sometimes I wonder why deism isn't as common as atheism. Yet still, I wouldn't use natural happiness as an example. In some countries Christians are positively miserable when it comes to natural happines.
Its the supernatural joy of Christ that keeps them going. And that's something quite different. I wouldn't even put that in the same category. That's something that reaches beyond this world, beyond our broken bodies, its just more. Higher. A happiness I think Adam and Eve would have longed for if they knew of it, and would have given up the Garden of Eden to pursue, if they hadn't fallen to temptation.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
Comment
-
Originally posted by seer View PostI was taking exception with your use of "natural." If you take the Creator out of the picture there is no design or teleology for humans.
But He did create us to know and love Him, and when we don't we are violating that created order. The very thing that would make us happy and whole.
But I am not speaking of "natural happiness" but the joy that faith in Christ brings - that deep happiness that we were created for.
I don't think they should be compared. They're tricky enough on their own, and while the former - natural happiness - is accessible to all, and doesn't require supernatural revelation, the latter is accessible by faith alone.
Comment
-
This comment bugged me so I decided to add yet another post.
Originally posted by seerIf you take the Creator out of the picture there is no design or teleology for humans.
You don't have to believe in God, in order to know what makes you happy and fulfilled, or even to figure out from experience what is right or wrong seer.
So I'm not sure what you mean with "take God out of the picture."
Natural happines belongs to this world. That's not taking God out of the picture. That's just a definition.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Leonhard View PostDoing better in school, life satisfaction, less drug abuse etc... that's all just worldly stuff.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
Comment
Related Threads
Collapse
Topics | Statistics | Last Post | ||
---|---|---|---|---|
Started by little_monkey, 03-27-2024, 04:19 PM
|
16 responses
172 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by One Bad Pig
Yesterday, 11:55 AM
|
||
Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
|
53 responses
410 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by Mountain Man
Yesterday, 11:32 AM
|
||
Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
|
25 responses
114 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by rogue06
Yesterday, 08:36 AM
|
||
Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
|
33 responses
198 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by Roy
Yesterday, 07:43 AM
|
||
Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
|
84 responses
383 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by JimL
Yesterday, 11:08 AM
|
Comment