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Kids Raised With Religion Do Much Better

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  • #16
    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Yes - every statement is an assertion. My point was that I was not asserting "it is this way." I was pointing out that you have correlation without an explanation for causation. You asserted the cause is one thing, and I pointed out that other possibilities exist which you have not excluded. You've merely asserted "it has to be my way."
    Well of course it is my way according to my worldview, and according to your beliefs it must be something else.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      Well of course it is my way according to my worldview, and according to your beliefs it must be something else.
      I've not said anything about "must." You asserted "it's because of X." You have not made that case - merely asserted it.

      This appears to be another troll thread. So I'll leave the last word to you. I'm unsubscribing.
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        I've not said anything about "must." You asserted "it's because of X." You have not made that case - merely asserted it.
        Your assertion is implied and necessary to your atheistic worldview. Just man up and admit it...
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          Well of course it is my way according to my worldview, and according to your beliefs it must be something else.
          Actually it doesn't have to be something else according to his worldview. If tomorrow it was shown that atheists on the whole were more intelligent, had an on average higher earning income, reported happier lives, lived longer and/or had better and more frequent sex. Then that wouldn't show that Christianity is false.

          Conversely, showing that there's a correlation between religious upbringing and faith, doesn't show that atheism or humanism is wrong, nor that a humanist somehow needs to believe its false.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
            Actually it doesn't have to be something else according to his worldview. If tomorrow it was shown that atheists on the whole were more intelligent, had an on average higher earning income, reported happier lives, lived longer and/or had better and more frequent sex. Then that wouldn't show that Christianity is false.

            Conversely, showing that there's a correlation between religious upbringing and faith, doesn't show that atheism or humanism is wrong, nor that a humanist somehow needs to believe its false.
            Do you ALWAYS have to be so cotton-picken LOGICAL!?!?!?!
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
              Actually it doesn't have to be something else according to his worldview. If tomorrow it was shown that atheists on the whole were more intelligent, had an on average higher earning income, reported happier lives, lived longer and/or had better and more frequent sex. Then that wouldn't show that Christianity is false.

              Conversely, showing that there's a correlation between religious upbringing and faith, doesn't show that atheism or humanism is wrong, nor that a humanist somehow needs to believe its false.
              Leonhard do you believe that there is a teleology for the human person? And that the closer we align to that purpose the more satisfied, happier and fulfilled we will become?

              “Thou hast made us for thyself, O Lord, and our heart is restless until it finds its rest in thee.”
              Last edited by seer; 09-19-2018, 10:19 AM.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                Leonhard do you believe that there is a teleology for the human person?
                Yes.

                And that the closer we align to that purpose the more satisfied, happier and fulfilled we will become?
                There is nothing that prevents people who aren't Christians from understanding the natural human telos, and living a naturally happy life. Its not a bad thing. Its good to be happy. We're meant to be happy creatures.

                But if it distracting you from Christ, then you're losing out on something even greater. In that case I'd rather trade natural happiness for supernatural glory.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  Do you ALWAYS have to be so cotton-picken LOGICAL!?!?!?!
                  Hey you have some tantrums from me from time to time to cancel it all out.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                    There is nothing that prevents people who aren't Christians from understanding the natural human telos, and living a naturally happy life. Its not a bad thing. Its good to be happy. We're meant to be happy creatures.

                    But if it distracting you from Christ, then you're losing out on something even greater. In that case I'd rather trade natural happiness for supernatural glory.
                    I'm not saying that unbelievers can't live a relatively happy life. But there is no "natural" teleology for humans in that case. There is only genetics or personal preferences, and those can vary a lot. But if there is a design for humanity, and individuals by extension, then the closer we get to that purpose the more content and happier we will become. I look at it this way, you have a race car that was designed to run on hi-octane gasoline - you can use a low octane blend, and the car with still run but with a lot of fits and starts. It never really comes close to functioning the way it was designed though.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      I'm not saying that unbelievers can't live a relatively happy life. But there is no "natural" teleology for humans in that case.
                      Are you asking about what their view implies, or what is actually the case? We humans have telos. That would be objectively true, regardless of whether a persons worldview implied it or not. A persons worldview doesn't change what's good for them, just what they believe about it. And they can still with the power of natural reasoning find out these things for themselves, and live accordingly to them, to the degree that they chose to do so.

                      But if there is a design for humanity, and individuals by extension, then the closer we get to that purpose the more content and happier we will become.
                      I agree with this. Especially for the natural happiness. But I hesitate a bit when it comes to the supernatural glory that Christ is inviting people into. That might require a lot of sacrifice, drudgery, giving loved things up. Don't forget that Christ told people to pluck out their eyes, and cut off their hand, and while He didn't mean that literally, its always been taken that Christians should be willing to sacrifice what is most dearest and closest to them for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven.

                      I don't like the word "designed", it compares humans to artifacts. Something which it seems you're doing in the rest of that text. The comparison fails in some ways, and it breaks the analogy. We're not here in the world to tick in a rather smooth way. God didn't create engines, or clockworks, He created creatures.

                      God created Adam and Eve, to live in this blissful natural human happiness that the Garden of Eden represents. But after the fall, He's offered something much greater, by inviting humans to join Him in Heaven, to behold Him for eternity.

                      Natural happiness is accessible to all us, though its likely only a pale shadow of Adam and Eve's perfect matrimonial bliss. Atheists, Christians, Moslems, Buddhist, Satanists and even all other worldviews get married, pursue hobbies, travel, etc... But it its the joy of Christ, that I think really defines Christian spirituality. A joy that makes you want to forsake worldly things, and even risk your health and short term gain and happiness in this life.

                      You're right that there's probably something missing in atheists lives when it comes to God, and sometimes I wonder why deism isn't as common as atheism. Yet still, I wouldn't use natural happiness as an example. In some countries Christians are positively miserable when it comes to natural happines.

                      Its the supernatural joy of Christ that keeps them going. And that's something quite different. I wouldn't even put that in the same category. That's something that reaches beyond this world, beyond our broken bodies, its just more. Higher. A happiness I think Adam and Eve would have longed for if they knew of it, and would have given up the Garden of Eden to pursue, if they hadn't fallen to temptation.
                      Last edited by Leonhard; 09-19-2018, 12:42 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                        Are you asking about what their view implies, or what is actually the case? We humans have telos. That would be objectively true, regardless of whether a persons worldview implied it or not. A persons worldview doesn't change what's good for them, just what they believe about it. And they can still with the power of natural reasoning find out these things for themselves, and live accordingly to them, to the degree that they chose to do so.
                        I was taking exception with your use of "natural." If you take the Creator out of the picture there is no design or teleology for humans.



                        I agree with this. Especially for the natural happiness. But I hesitate a bit when it comes to the supernatural glory that Christ is inviting people into. That might require a lot of sacrifice, drudgery, giving loved things up. Don't forget that Christ told people to pluck out their eyes, and cut off their hand, and while He didn't mean that literally, its always been taken that Christians should be willing to sacrifice what is most dearest and closest to them for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven.

                        I don't like the word "designed", it compares humans to artifacts. Something which it seems you're doing in the rest of that text. The comparison fails in some ways, and it breaks the analogy. We're not here in the world to tick in a rather smooth way. God created Adam and Eve, to live in this blissful natural human happiness that the Garden of Eden represents. But after the fall, he's offered something much greater, by inviting humans to join Him in Heaven and behold Him for eternity.

                        God didn't create engines, or clockworks, He created creatures.
                        But He did create us to know and love Him, and when we don't we are violating that created order. The very thing that would make us happy and whole.

                        Natural happiness is accessible to all us, though its likely only a pale shadow of their perfect matrimonial bliss. Atheists, Christians, Moslems, Buddhist, Satanists and even all other worldviews get married, pursue hobbies, travel, etc... But it its the joy of Christ, that I think really defines Christian spirituality. A joy that makes you want to forsake worldly things, and even risk your health and short term gain and happiness in this life.

                        You're right that there's probably something missing in atheists lives when it comes to God, and sometimes I wonder why deism isn't as common as atheism. Yet still, I wouldn't use natural happiness as an example. In some countries Christians are positively miserable when it comes to natural happines.
                        But I am not speaking of "natural happiness" but the joy that faith in Christ brings - that deep happiness that we were created for.

                        Its the supernatural joy of Christ that keeps them going. And that's something quite different. I wouldn't even put that in the same category. That's something that reaches beyond this world, beyond our broken bodies, its just more. Higher. A happiness I think Adam and Eve would have longed for if they knew of it, and would have given up the Garden of Eden to pursue, if they hadn't fallen to temptation.
                        But in the end if you reject your Creator you are rejecting the very thing that you were Created for, the only thing, that in the end, offers the happiness necessary for wholeness.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          I was taking exception with your use of "natural." If you take the Creator out of the picture there is no design or teleology for humans.
                          I'm using natural, in the sense that natural theologians are doing it. Belonging to this world. The orderliness of our bodies. Etc...

                          But He did create us to know and love Him, and when we don't we are violating that created order. The very thing that would make us happy and whole.
                          On that point we'd agree. Though I still hesitate here. There's just so many ways that the higher obligations of a Christian life could superceed that. Making you miserable in this world, though hoping for Christ in the next. You'd be fatigued, in bad health, you might be depressed because you lost things, but you would still have joy even through all that. You'd score very negative in the study you linked to.

                          But I am not speaking of "natural happiness" but the joy that faith in Christ brings - that deep happiness that we were created for.
                          Yes, you were seer. That's basically what that study was about. Natural happiness. You can't measure your love of Christ, except by self-report.

                          I don't think they should be compared. They're tricky enough on their own, and while the former - natural happiness - is accessible to all, and doesn't require supernatural revelation, the latter is accessible by faith alone.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by seer
                            Source: Associations of Religious Upbringing With Subsequent Health and Well-Being From Adolescence to Young Adulthood: An Outcome-Wide Analysis

                            Compared with no attendance, at least weekly attendance of religious services was associated with greater life satisfaction and positive affect, a number of character strengths, lower probabilities of marijuana use and early sexual initiation, and fewer lifetime sexual partners.

                            © Copyright Original Source

                            Doing better in school, life satisfaction, less drug abuse etc... that's all just worldly stuff.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              This comment bugged me so I decided to add yet another post.

                              Originally posted by seer
                              If you take the Creator out of the picture there is no design or teleology for humans.
                              I don't know exactly what you mean with "take the Creator out of the picture". God is there whether people realise He's there or not. He's created them with an orderliness, which I consider obvious. All people can find these things out.

                              You don't have to believe in God, in order to know what makes you happy and fulfilled, or even to figure out from experience what is right or wrong seer.

                              So I'm not sure what you mean with "take God out of the picture."

                              Natural happines belongs to this world. That's not taking God out of the picture. That's just a definition.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                                Doing better in school, life satisfaction, less drug abuse etc... that's all just worldly stuff.
                                Why it is worldly to have more satisfaction and do better in school or have less substance abuse base on your faith in God?
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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