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Kids Raised With Religion Do Much Better

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  • #76
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    You said:

    Philosopphically, a hammer has a teleology, and the purpose of hammering nails, prying nails, "adjusting" stubborn framing, locating electrical boxes, and holding down paper would all be valid teleologies for the hammer - because they are all (possible) purposes or functions of a hammer.

    So I'm not sure where you stand on this.
    I think there is confusion because teleology is used in two ways: philosophically - which has to do with the purpose for which a thing is used - and theologically which has more to do with creators and intent. Clearly any given thing has a teleology by the first sense if it has a user/person or if it plays a particular function (e.g., the heart pumps blood).

    I need to figure out how to better explain this. Teleology might just be a bad/distracting word.

    Originally posted by seer View Post
    That makes no sense Carp, the law of God would not be any more preposterous than any other law, except it would be universal, and could be universally enforced.
    It may make no sense to you, Seer, but it makes sense. The "law of god" is not absolute/objective in any way that is not true of "the law of Michel." You'd have to explain how it is if it is.

    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Again, there is no "prediction" here, just an assumption read into the world are you see it.
    Well - as I said - read my prior responses. I have no desire to go through it all again.

    Originally posted by seer View Post
    I should have said universal moral truths. And how must people function as if there are universal moral truths, so I'm not sure what your point is. And I still don't get why we would function any differently with universal moral truths being a reality. What would you expect to actually see? How would the change our behavior or function?
    I can't answer this. The concept is not a viable one to me. It makes no sense. Because morality is individually assessed, the idea of a morality that is "out there" we have to align to is simply nonsensical.

    Originally posted by seer View Post
    That is the point, you literally have no idea if all ethics are relative. You can not demonstrate that by experience because you don't know how we would act or function if ethics were universal. You have nothing to compare.
    What exactly do you think I need to compare? Morals are about sorting ought from ought not action. It's not that difficult. That decision will vary by person based on what they value. Everyone does it. You value your god above everything else. You believe this god wants you to align your moral code to his (the Christian god is typically referred to in masculine terms, so I'll use that), so you end up with adopting your interpretation of what you think this god wants (a god you've never seen or heard and who's moral code is differently interpreted by multiple other Christian sects, and who apparently cannot even be clear enough about his existence and nature to have all humans worshiping the same god). And on this you want to slap the label "absolute" and "objective" and think it somehow is going to hold?

    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Again your unbelief has no bearing.
    Likewise - your belief has no bearing, Seer. That's what you don't seem to understand. You seem to think that because you believe this god exists - this god exists - period. And everything else flows from that. But my belief this god does NOT exist has no bearing? Seer, explain to me why I should think or accept that your belief that this god DOES exist has any bearing?

    Originally posted by seer View Post
    And like with a specific culture you live in, you may not value what they do, and you may in fact violate their laws, but there also may be a penalty.
    Correct - but the law of my culture is not an "absolute" or "objective." It's merely the collective expression of our individual moral norms. When we cannot reconcile moral differences, what is left is isolation/separation, or contention/punishment. In that exercise, the one with the most power wins. That doesn't determine what is right or wrong - it merely determines who/what has enough power to enforce their definition as "the norm." Your god, therefore, is no different. You haven't gotten to "objective" or "absolute." You've gotten only to "the most powerful subjective/relative moralizer in existence.

    Originally posted by seer View Post
    You do not have to accept the law of God, but His laws are still universal and enforceable.
    See above - and you are skating dangerously close to "might makes right."

    Originally posted by seer View Post
    I think about morality all the time and long before I became a Christian. And I am convinced that shoving children into ovens, or child rape, are universally wrong. But I'm funny that way.
    Isn't it amazing - I think the same things are universally wrong too. We have very similar moral frameworks with respect to that.

    Originally posted by seer View Post
    So you are willing to miss one of the highlights of your life! In any case happy birthday old man!
    Thanks. I will be teaching in Chesapeake VA until about 2:00 on Friday, and then I have to be in Burlington Vermont by 1:00 on Saturday. I plan to stop overnight somewhere because I have no desire to drive until 2:00 AM. So it is possible we could do breakfast that morning. You'd have to bring a candle for the muffin!

    If you are interested and trust me enough, PM me your town and I can tell you if it's possible. Normally I would go straight up 87, but I COULD divert to 91 and it would only cost me an hour or so. If not - or it's a bad day - not to worry. There will be other trips and you can harass me then...
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      I can't answer this. The concept is not a viable one to me. It makes no sense. Because morality is individually assessed, the idea of a morality that is "out there" we have to align to is simply nonsensical.
      Well sure, but God is an individual. This is the point, if universal moral law exists there is nothing in your experience that speaks against that. And you have use what you see in the world, how the world functions, as you said, to conclude that such moral truths do not exist. But that experience logically does not necessitate that conclusion, it is an assertion.


      What exactly do you think I need to compare? Morals are about sorting ought from ought not action. It's not that difficult. That decision will vary by person based on what they value. Everyone does it. You value your god above everything else. You believe this god wants you to align your moral code to his (the Christian god is typically referred to in masculine terms, so I'll use that), so you end up with adopting your interpretation of what you think this god wants (a god you've never seen or heard and who's moral code is differently interpreted by multiple other Christian sects, and who apparently cannot even be clear enough about his existence and nature to have all humans worshiping the same god). And on this you want to slap the label "absolute" and "objective" and think it somehow is going to hold?
      Again, moral disagreement (even among Christians) does not disprove universal moral truths, any more than moral agreement proves them. You have agreed with this in the past, but you keep bringing the argument up.


      Correct - but the law of my culture is not an "absolute" or "objective." It's merely the collective expression of our individual moral norms. When we cannot reconcile moral differences, what is left is isolation/separation, or contention/punishment. In that exercise, the one with the most power wins. That doesn't determine what is right or wrong - it merely determines who/what has enough power to enforce their definition as "the norm." Your god, therefore, is no different. You haven't gotten to "objective" or "absolute." You've gotten only to "the most powerful subjective/relative moralizer in existence.


      See above - and you are skating dangerously close to "might makes right."
      Carp, if might does not define right what does? And if you disagree with how the powerful define right there is no logical way to claim that you are correct and they are wrong, as we discussed in the other thread. You are free to claim personal preference, but so are they. And nothing is resolved.


      Isn't it amazing - I think the same things are universally wrong too. We have very similar moral frameworks with respect to that.
      Except in my view these things are actually universally wrong, and not based on our personal preferences.


      Thanks. I will be teaching in Chesapeake VA until about 2:00 on Friday, and then I have to be in Burlington Vermont by 1:00 on Saturday. I plan to stop overnight somewhere because I have no desire to drive until 2:00 AM. So it is possible we could do breakfast that morning. You'd have to bring a candle for the muffin!

      If you are interested and trust me enough, PM me your town and I can tell you if it's possible. Normally I would go straight up 87, but I COULD divert to 91 and it would only cost me an hour or so. If not - or it's a bad day - not to worry. There will be other trips and you can harass me then...
      I will PM you...
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        Well sure, but God is an individual.
        My point exactly (assuming such a being actually exists).

        Originally posted by seer View Post
        This is the point, if universal moral law exists there is nothing in your experience that speaks against that.
        My entire experience speaks against that. Moralizing is always engaged in by sentient minds. If there are no sentient minds capable of choice - there is no morality.

        Originally posted by seer View Post
        And you have use what you see in the world, how the world functions, as you said, to conclude that such moral truths do not exist. But that experience logically does not necessitate that conclusion, it is an assertion.
        Then you will have to show me how it is possible for a function of the sentient mind to exist without a sentient mind.

        Originally posted by seer View Post
        Again, moral disagreement (even among Christians) does not disprove universal moral truths, any more than moral agreement proves them. You have agreed with this in the past, but you keep bringing the argument up.
        First of all, you have shifted from "absolute" and "objective" to "universal." These are not the same concepts. My moral framework is "universal" in so far as I believe all sentient minds are choosing morally if they choose according to my moral framework, and immorally if they choose otherwise. In other words, I measure the morality of ALL moral agents by MY moral framework. That is true by definition. If I thought someone else had a superior moral position on any particular point, it would instantly become MY moral position. Each of us does this - we measure all moral choices against our own moral framework. So each moral framework is "universal" in that sense. It is not "absolute" because it is subject to change over time, if the person changes their valuing OR if they discover an error in their reasoning from value to choice of action. It is relative because each person has their own moral framework, making it relative to that person.

        So, using these terms consistently, if your god exists, and is sentient, then this god has a moral framework that is "universal" in the same way mine is, may or may not be absolute (depending on whether or not this god every changes - which Christian theology suggests does not happen), and it is relative because it is specific to this god.

        Originally posted by seer View Post
        Carp, if might does not define right what does?
        I'm amazed you are asking this. Hitler had the might in Nazi Germany. Did that make his actions right? History is replete with mighty people who did awful things. What makes an action right is determined by whether it protects/enhances/nurtures a thing we value highly, or whether it threatens/diminishes/degrades a thing we value highly.

        Originally posted by seer View Post
        And if you disagree with how the powerful define right there is no logical way to claim that you are correct and they are wrong, as we discussed in the other thread. You are free to claim personal preference, but so are they. And nothing is resolved.
        Of course it's resolved - relatively and subjectively. The powerful may throw me in jail for refusing to kill my disabled child (if that were the law of the land), but they cannot make me think it is "right" to kill my child. They can just punish me for not agreeing with them. What is right or wrong will continue to be a function of my sentience. And there is nothing to resolve. I am the master of my moral framework. Period. End of story.

        I'm not looking for an "absolute" or "objective" resolution because I know morality is not absolute or objective - it's relative and subjective.

        Originally posted by seer View Post
        Except in my view these things are actually universally wrong, and not based on our personal preferences.
        Of course they are based on personal preferences, Seer. You prefer your god. You love your god. You CHOOSE to align your moral framework with the framework you believe comes from this god. You CHOOSE the interpretation of this moral code that seems right to YOU. There are dozens or hundreds of interpretations of the Christian moral framework, each of them different in some ways and alike in others. The specific interpretation you have selected is ALL about your preferences...your choices. You keep claiming an "absolute," but you cannot show one to exist, and you cannot escape that your moral framework is likewise based in your preferences.

        Join the human condition. It is true of ALL of us.

        Originally posted by seer View Post
        I will PM you...
        Done...

        If we can pull it off, it should be an interesting breakfast. Please leave your gun at home...
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          My point exactly (assuming such a being actually exists).

          My entire experience speaks against that. Moralizing is always engaged in by sentient minds. If there are no sentient minds capable of choice - there is no morality.

          Then you will have to show me how it is possible for a function of the sentient mind to exist without a sentient mind.
          Carp, I assumed that after all our discussions you would know that when I speak of universal moral law I'm speaking of God's moral law.


          First of all, you have shifted from "absolute" and "objective" to "universal." These are not the same concepts. My moral framework is "universal" in so far as I believe all sentient minds are choosing morally if they choose according to my moral framework, and immorally if they choose otherwise. In other words, I measure the morality of ALL moral agents by MY moral framework. That is true by definition. If I thought someone else had a superior moral position on any particular point, it would instantly become MY moral position. Each of us does this - we measure all moral choices against our own moral framework. So each moral framework is "universal" in that sense. It is not "absolute" because it is subject to change over time, if the person changes their valuing OR if they discover an error in their reasoning from value to choice of action. It is relative because each person has their own moral framework, making it relative to that person.
          Carp, you never see me using the term absolute, and objective only in a very limited sense. Though according to your above definition God's law would be absolute since He would never discover an error in His moral reasoning, being all knowing.


          I'm amazed you are asking this. Hitler had the might in Nazi Germany. Did that make his actions right? History is replete with mighty people who did awful things. What makes an action right is determined by whether it protects/enhances/nurtures a thing we value highly, or whether it threatens/diminishes/degrades a thing we value highly.
          Why would you be amazed as a moral relativist? Hitler was simply protecting, furthering what he and his minions valued most. By your own definition his actions were right for him/them.

          Of course it's resolved - relatively and subjectively. The powerful may throw me in jail for refusing to kill my disabled child (if that were the law of the land), but they cannot make me think it is "right" to kill my child. They can just punish me for not agreeing with them. What is right or wrong will continue to be a function of my sentience. And there is nothing to resolve. I am the master of my moral framework. Period. End of story.
          Correct, and you can not make them think that they are wrong. And of course they would not be wrong according to their own lights. And around and around we go with no resolution. Period. End of story.

          I'm not looking for an "absolute" or "objective" resolution because I know morality is not absolute or objective - it's relative and subjective.
          Then how can you argue with the concept that might defines right? There is no objective to resolve a disagreement on this issue. Throwing out your personal ideal tells us nothing about whether the concept is valid or not.


          Of course they are based on personal preferences, Seer. You prefer your god. You love your god. You CHOOSE to align your moral framework with the framework you believe comes from this god. You CHOOSE the interpretation of this moral code that seems right to YOU. There are dozens or hundreds of interpretations of the Christian moral framework, each of them different in some ways and alike in others. The specific interpretation you have selected is ALL about your preferences...your choices. You keep claiming an "absolute," but you cannot show one to exist, and you cannot escape that your moral framework is likewise based in your preferences.

          Join the human condition. It is true of ALL of us.
          Again, none of that tells us whether universal moral truths exist or not. And you can not show that universal moral truths don't exist. Even as you claim that certain behaviors should be universally wrong.


          If we can pull it off, it should be an interesting breakfast. Please leave your gun at home...
          No worries, I generally don't walk around with a firearm. ; )
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            Carp, I assumed that after all our discussions you would know that when I speak of universal moral law I'm speaking of God's moral law.
            I am aware.

            Originally posted by seer View Post
            Carp, you never see me using the term absolute, and objective only in a very limited sense. Though according to your above definition God's law would be absolute since He would never discover an error in His moral reasoning, being all knowing.
            It's entirely possible that such a hypothetical being would have an unchanging moral framework, rendering it "absolute."

            Originally posted by seer View Post
            Why would you be amazed as a moral relativist? Hitler was simply protecting, furthering what he and his minions valued most. By your own definition his actions were right for him/them.
            And "might" had nothing to do with making it "right," assuming they actually believed it was "right."

            Originally posted by seer View Post
            Correct, and you can not make them think that they are wrong. And of course they would not be wrong according to their own lights. And around and around we go with no resolution. Period. End of story.
            None of this is a surprise. That's the nature of relative morality. It has always been this way. It will always BE this way. Individuals establish a moral framework around what they value. There is no definitive "will always work" way to resolve differences. Differences that cannot be resolved are subject to isolation/separation, or contention of some form. In that process, the stronger's moral framework will be the one enforced. That doesn't make it "right" to anyone else. It just makes it the one enforced. That's exactly how morality works even in the Christian world. After all, if your god exists, and my moral framework differs, then this being is vastly more powerful than I and can punish me or separate from me to resolve the conflict. What this being cannot do is FORCE me to accept their moral position as "right" (unless they remove my freedom of will, in which case morality is not longer possible because there is no possibility of choice).

            Originally posted by seer View Post
            Then how can you argue with the concept that might defines right?
            Easily - I just did it above. Might defines enforcement - it does not define "right." Only the individual can do that.

            Originally posted by seer View Post
            There is no objective to resolve a disagreement on this issue.
            Correct - but you're not saying anything new. We already knew subjective morality is not objective.

            Originally posted by seer View Post
            Throwing out your personal ideal tells us nothing about whether the concept is valid or not.
            It tells you something about how subjectively valid it is. It tells you nothing about how objectively valid it is because subjective things are not objective. Again - you're not saying anything.

            Originally posted by seer View Post
            Again, none of that tells us whether universal moral truths exist or not.
            Of course they exist. Each of us applies our moral framework universally. I've already stipulated to this.

            Originally posted by seer View Post
            And you can not show that universal moral truths don't exist.
            I've acknowledged they exist multiple times. Each of us has one.

            Originally posted by seer View Post
            Even as you claim that certain behaviors should be universally wrong.
            Correct - each of us has a universal moral framework.

            Originally posted by seer View Post
            No worries, I generally don't walk around with a firearm. ; )
            I had to laugh when I mentioned my potential stop-over to my wife. She picked up on your screen name and asked, "isn't he the one that threatened to shoot anyone who would dare take his guns?"

            I told her you were - but you were more bark than actual bite.
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post

              I had to laugh when I mentioned my potential stop-over to my wife. She picked up on your screen name and asked, "isn't he the one that threatened to shoot anyone who would dare take his guns?"

              I told her you were - but you were more bark than actual bite.
              I would need teeth to bite. And I don't think I said I would actually shoot anyone, just that I know people who would, and I wouldn't blame them.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                I would need teeth to bite. And I don't think I said I would actually shoot anyone, just that I know people who would, and I wouldn't blame them.
                You actually were not that nuanced. You should go back and read what you wrote...
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  You actually were not that nuanced. You should go back and read what you wrote...
                  Yeah, it's possible. Sometimes I don't have a filter... In any case no worries, I'm not a violent man, as a matter of fact my last street fight was in the mid 80s, long before I was a Christian which has definitely soften me....
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Yeah, it's possible. Sometimes I don't have a filter... In any case no worries, I'm not a violent man, as a matter of fact my last street fight was in the mid 80s, long before I was a Christian which has definitely soften me....
                    Interesting. I've never been in a street fight - as a Christian OR an atheist.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      Interesting. I've never been in a street fight - as a Christian OR an atheist.
                      Why not? I got about 14 under my belt, one time I really got my butt kicked though.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Why not? I got about 14 under my belt, one time I really got my butt kicked though.
                        I've never been one to see physical violence as a solution to anything. I'm not a pacifist, mind you, but I have never encountered a situation that could not be dealt with in another (more effective) way.
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          I've never been one to see physical violence as a solution to anything. I'm not a pacifist, mind you, but I have never encountered a situation that could not be dealt with in another (more effective) way.
                          I wish that would have been true when I was a street cop.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            I've never been one to see physical violence as a solution to anything. I'm not a pacifist, mind you, but I have never encountered a situation that could not be dealt with in another (more effective) way.
                            I don't know, it was just kind of the way things were in my neighborhood, then the Marine Corps.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              Why not? I got about 14 under my belt, one time I really got my butt kicked though.
                              I got my butt kicked even in one or two of the times I won. It was literally the case of "you oughta see the other guy(s)." Even when someone doesn't manage to lay a hand on you, you still often end up with sore and bruised knuckles, wrenched muscles and the like.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                I got my butt kicked even in one or two of the times I won. It was literally the case of "you oughta see the other guy(s)." Even when someone doesn't manage to lay a hand on you, you still often end up with sore and bruised knuckles, wrenched muscles and the like.
                                Exactly...
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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