Change Water into Wine

[One Bad Pig]

Wrong. The case was as people got intoxicated, the more fermented wine would be served. There is no reason Jesus could not have made the wine as fresh as from the vine. And Holy Jesus would not have provided a cause for the sin of drunkenness. The fact is wine would include juice from the grapes, hence the wine press.

I don't think you realize just how little sense you're making here. I have looked into what the Bible calls 'drunkenness' - and a few glasses of typically fermented wine simply will not cause that result in adults.

Respectfully, you have no idea what you're talking about; all you're doing is attempting to shoehorn your preconceived notions into the text.

[QuantaFille]

Wrong. The case was as people got intoxicated, the more fermented wine would be served. There is no reason Jesus could not have made the wine as fresh as from the vine. And Holy Jesus would not have provided a cause for the sin of drunkenness. The fact is wine would include juice from the grapes, hence the wine press.

I don't know about you, but I have consumed a lot of grape juice (not fermented) in my life and I have NEVER gotten drunk on it at all, let alone drunk enough to not know what I was drinking. I have no idea what you're on about here.

[Christianbookworm]

Hmm.. some of this sounds awful familiar. Including the poster who thinks Jesus would need to turn oxygen atoms into carbon atoms! There are carbon atoms all over the place! No one will miss the carbon dioxide! Or the bacteria. Is it even safe to turn oxygen into carbon?

[One Bad Pig]

Is it even safe to turn oxygen into carbon?

It's horrifically inefficient, given the abundance of natural carbon and the energy input needed.

[Roy]

Wrong. The case was as people got intoxicated, the more fermented wine would be served.

Since unfermented wine isn't intoxicating, no-one would get intoxicated and they'd never get to serve the fermented stuff.

I think you need to think it out again.

[37818]

I don't know about you, but I have consumed a lot of grape juice (not fermented) in my life and I have NEVER gotten drunk on it at all, let alone drunk enough to not know what I was drinking. I have no idea what you're on about here.

Modern grape juice is pasteurized. And the fermentation can occur in the grapes themselves.

[Christianbookworm]

Please stop.... Wine back then had less alcohol than present day wine, but it still had it. It was better than drinking water that would make you sick.

[Sparko]

Please stop.... Wine back then had less alcohol than present day wine, but it still had it. It was better than drinking water that would make you sick.

he seems to be confusing "new wine" with "good wine"

There are passages about putting new wine in old wineskins. Which has nothing to do with the good wine at the wedding. Both the good and bad wine had alcohol. It is just that the wedding hosts usually gave out the good wine at first to impress the guests then gave them cheap wine later when they couldn't tell the difference. It even specifically says that in the bible:

John 2:9and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”"

At the wedding they gave out the good wine, but then the ran out. So Jesus turned water into even better wine and that impressed the master of the banquet.

[Jedidiah]

he seems to be confusing "new wine" with "good wine"

There are passages about putting new wine in old wineskins. Which has nothing to do with the good wine at the wedding. Both the good and bad wine had alcohol. It is just that the wedding hosts usually gave out the good wine at first to impress the guests then gave them cheap wine later when they couldn't tell the difference. It even specifically says that in the bible:

John 2:9and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”"

At the wedding they gave out the good wine, but then the ran out. So Jesus turned water into even better wine and that impressed the master of the banquet.

Any reformed heavy drinker will recognize the subject passage as speaking of alcoholic wine.

. . . And Holy Jesus would not have provided a cause for the sin of drunkenness. . .

God created grapes and fermentation. Are you suggesting that this is "a cause for the sin of drunkenness?" Creating fermented wine is really no different.

[37818]

God created grapes and fermentation. Are you suggesting that this is "a cause for the sin of drunkenness?" Creating fermented wine is really no different.

I am of the belief that the good wine was not fermented. You all are free to believe otherwise.

[thewriteranon]

Please stop.... Wine back then had less alcohol than present day wine, but it still had it. It was better than drinking water that would make you sick.

Grape wine, called tin or gestin in Mesopotamia and irp in Egypt (Joffe 1998:304; Lesko 1978:3; McGovern 2003:151), has an alcohol content of 8-14% by volume.

Current Anthropology Volume 46, No. 2, April 2005 at page 284

Overindulgence in "wine is a mocker," but imbibing "strong drink" [Hebrew sekar] is "riotous" (Proverbs 20.1). The upshot of this admonition is that sekar has a higher alcoholic content than wine. Barley beer can be ruled out; it runs at only 4 percent to 5 percent alcohol by volume. . . . Distilling the wine or its pomac, in the manner that a brandy or Italia grappa is made today, is just as unlikely, because no archaeological or textual evidence for distillation exists before Aristotle. The related Akkadian word, sikaru, provides the best clue. It is usually translated as "date beer" or "date wine" (chapter 7). With twice as much sugar as grapes, dates could be fermented to a higher alcoholic content, possibly as high as 15% by volume.

Chapter 9, page 236.

(All errors mine).

I don't know what wine bottles you've looked at lately, but all the ones I typically use are 8-12% alcohol by volume (with sangria coming in lower, sometimes by a lot and port coming in higher).

(I've downloaded the chapters for both of these citation thanks to Harvard libraries).

[One Bad Pig]

Current Anthropology Volume 46, No. 2, April 2005 at page 284



Chapter 9, page 236.

(All errors mine).

I don't know what wine bottles you've looked at lately, but all the ones I typically use are 8-12% alcohol by volume (with sangria coming in lower, sometimes by a lot and port coming in higher).

(I've downloaded the chapters for both of these citation thanks to Harvard libraries).

We can get beer today up to about 20-21% alcohol (by packing in a ridiculous amount of hops), but any wine I see past 14-15% is "fortified" (i.o.w., mixed with brandy).

[Christianbookworm]

So, that alcohol content chart was lying to me? I thought modern wine had a higher content?

[thewriteranon]

So, that alcohol content chart was lying to me? I thought modern wine had a higher content?

Not usually. I drink wines that come in under 10% abv. sometimes. Grapes (and dates, apparently) have very high sugar content and so ferment very quickly, nigh immediately, unless pasteurized.

[Christianbookworm]

Hmm... don't know where I got the idea that wine had a higher content than beer...